What can Harold Wilson teach Andy Burnham?

**SPEAKER_1** (0:02)
This is a Global Production.

**Lewis Goodall** (0:04)
Harold Wilson, the great man from Huddersfield. What is it about Wilson that made you want to write about him?

**Nick Thomas-Symonds** (0:10)
The first thing is the remarkable story of his background.

**Lewis Goodall** (0:15)
And Andy Burnham, how do you think he's taken to the job?

**Nick Thomas-Symonds** (0:18)
He's managed to dominate the news agenda in a way that I think the government found tough to do over the previous two summers.

**Lewis Goodall** (0:26)
In retrospect, the EU were crazy not to give Cameron more, weren't they?

**Nick Thomas-Symonds** (0:29)
So I would describe the relationship as unique because we are a former member of the European Union. Also, it is absolutely fundamental to us, not just in terms of security, defence, but also in terms of trade. Still two-thirds of our trade is with the European Union.

**Lewis Goodall** (0:49)
Do you think that's the end of the story? It was in, then out, and stay out? Or do you think that we might go back in one day?

**SPEAKER_4** (0:55)
Mr Wilson, what do you see as the main plank of Labour policy under your leadership?

**SPEAKER_1** (1:00)
The main lines of our policy have been agreed and laid down under Hugh Gates' leadership, and we're not going to change them.
But in terms of domestic politics, the main thing is to get Britain's economy moving forward again, instead of stagnating. So that we can not only strengthen our standing in the world, because that does depend on our economic strength, but so that we can produce the means for raising standard of living at home, for bringing social justice to the millions who are still living below a decent level of life. And so that we can make some contribution, a bigger contribution, I hope, to the needs of countries who are still facing starvation.

**Lewis Goodall** (1:42)
A rare thing, a Northern Prime Minister with a Northern accent, a sudden change in leadership, a nation gripped by cost of living crisis, obsessed with questions of inequality, and Labour accused of tacking left. No, not Andy Burnham in 2026, it's Harold Wilson in 1963 and 1964 For a new Labour Prime Minister, there aren't that many old Labour Prime Ministers to look to for political inspiration. For Burnham, considering the direction of his government, what to do, what not to do, he could do a lot worse over his first Prime Ministerial holiday than thinking of Wilson, a sleeping titan of Labour history. He won four elections out of five. He shepherded pioneering social legislation through the House of Commons. He was a true master of party management and a pioneer of modern political communication with his trademark pipe, Gannett's Raincoat, you might say a very early adopter of political content. He also uniquely created a settlement on Europe, which endured. Nick Thomas-Symonds was, until recently, Minister for European Relations within the Starmer government. He was as close an ally of Starmer's as there could be. He had a front row seat of those two years of the Starmer ministry, its beginning and its fall, and was asked to leave the government by the new Prime Minister just three weeks ago. He's also a biographer of Wilson's. His book, Harold Wilson, The Winner, is essentially a revisionist account, arguing that Wilson has been badly underestimated by historians and characterised as an unprincipled fixer when he, in fact, was one of Britain's most effective post-war Prime Ministers and perhaps Labour's greatest electoral strategist. So now, Shaun of the shackles of ministerial office, we asked him into the News Agents studio to look at politics through both an historic and contemporary lens. What were those last days in the Starmer bunker really like? Why has the European question dogged British politics? How will Starmer be remembered? And what can Andy Burnham learn from a Labour leader, a political genius, long since past? Welcome to the News Agents.

**SPEAKER_1** (3:58)
The News Agents.

**Lewis Goodall** (3:59)
Well, Nick Thomas-Symonds, welcome to the News Agents. You're no longer in government, but you are here. So that's something.

**Nick Thomas-Symonds** (4:05)
That's absolutely something.

**Lewis Goodall** (4:06)
I can take that to the bank.

**Nick Thomas-Symonds** (4:08)
Way better to enjoy new firm freedom, Lewis.

**Lewis Goodall** (4:11)
We talked for ages about getting you on to talk about your book about Wilson, which is excellent and to share our sort of mutual interests in That Great Man. But before we do, just since I mentioned it already, how are you adjusting to the new life or the old life, I suppose?

**Nick Thomas-Symonds** (4:26)
Well, it is an adjustment, of course, because I've been a front bencher for the best part of 11 years. I think reflecting upon it, I wish that more than two years of the 11 had been in government. But that was...