Lenny's Podcast: Tom Verrilli on why great product teams need fewer PMs

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:01)
So, I just listened to this fascinating episode of Lenny's Podcast with Tom Verrilli, the CPO of Whatnot. He's got this pretty radical philosophy about product management that I think challenges a lot of conventional wisdom. Oh yeah? What's his take? Get this, his team actually operates as if they regret that product management exists. Now, before you think he's just anti-PM, he's not saying they're useless.
He means they should only be hired when there's a real need, not just because an org chart says six engineers automatically require a designer and a PM.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:39)
That's a bold stance for a chief product officer. What's driving that philosophy?

**Lenny Rachitsky** (0:44)
He believes too many PMs can actually infantilize engineers and designers because those teammates never get enough chances to make decisions themselves. And this thinking shapes how he hires too.
He looks for PMs who can think both big and small, with the patience to define an end state and the urgency to validate quickly.

**SPEAKER_2** (1:06)
Interesting. So what are the red flags in interviews?

**Lenny Rachitsky** (1:09)
He's less interested in candidates who spend interviews talking about alignment and stakeholder management. He sees that as a sign of product theater rather than real product instinct. The best PMs aren't political operators. They're builders.

**SPEAKER_2** (1:25)
That connects to something I've been noticing in the industry. There's this rise of individual contributor work for senior product leaders, right? Tom actually addresses this.

**Lenny Rachitsky** (1:35)
Exactly. He thinks the industry is moving in a healthier direction when strong PMs are kept playing on the field, instead of being promoted away from the work into layers of management.
At Whatnot, even leaders who manage other PMs still spend most of their time doing hands-on product work. Specs, support tickets, data, code-based conversations. His mantra is verify, then trust.

**SPEAKER_2** (2:02)
How does he see AI impacting this hands-on approach?

**Lenny Rachitsky** (2:06)
Tom thinks AI makes it easier for product people to understand code, analyze data, and scope work without endless back and forth. But he's clear that tools don't replace responsibility. They simply help teams whole ass a few things, rather than half-ass many things. He believes this shift will support smaller, faster teams and more hybrid roles.
Building on that point about staying hands-on, what does he say about leadership judgment?
Good leaders need to stay close to the ground truth, especially in founder-led companies, where the founder's opinions ultimately carry real weight. His goal isn't to create another layer of bureaucracy, but to translate vision into reality while checking ego at the door.
He loves this mental model called play the accordion. Zoom out to understand strategy, zoom in to ship, then repeat the cycle as the team learns.

**SPEAKER_2** (3:00)
Any other memorable takeaways from the episode?

**Lenny Rachitsky** (3:03)
Yeah, he makes this great point about averages. A feature used by only 3% of users may still be 100% of their workflow.
The bigger lesson is simple. In product, nuance matters. And the best teams keep learning where the real value lives.