Irene Davis, Ph.D.: The evolution of the foot, running injuries, and minimalist shoes

**Peter Attia** (0:11)
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My guest this week is Dr. Irene Davis. Irene is a professor of physical medicine and rehabilitation at Harvard Medical School. She's also the founding director of the Spaulding National Running Center, one of the premier centers in the United States devoted exclusively to the diagnosis, treatment and prevention of running injuries in runners of all ages and abilities.
Irene holds two bachelor's degrees, one in exercise science from the University of Massachusetts and one in physical therapy from the University of Florida. She then went on to earn her master's degree in biomechanics from the University of Virginia before finally going on to get her PhD in biomechanics from Penn State.
In this episode, we talk about a lot of things and Irene is someone I've been wanting to talk with for about six months and I was hoping to do it in person so I could actually go to her lab, but alas COVID turned this into yet another video interview. Nevertheless, the wait was worth it. In this episode, we talk about a number of things. We start with the evolution of running. So when did we stand up as Homo erectus and then when did we begin to run? How did we run? What was the mechanic of that run? And then what changed about 50 years ago? Because what's really interesting when you think about this is we went from two million years ago till about 50 years ago, sort of doing the same thing and then 50 years ago something changed. We talk a lot about what that change was and how that change led to where we are today. We had a little nerdy in this episode, but I think the show notes are going to make this really easy to follow. And I go out of my way to stop and have Irene re-explain things and try to re-explain things myself so that people who aren't as familiar with the terminology can understand it. And I think we do a pretty good job of explaining the direction of the forces and just making sure people understand some of the lingo that we use. But that said, the show notes will be very valuable as we especially discuss some of the movement patterns, the gait patterns, the muscles within the foot and the legs, and even things as simple as the different types of strike patterns and what we mean by minimalist shoes. We have a very lengthy discussion about minimalist shoes versus conventional shoes, motion control shoes, cushion control shoes. We do talk a lot about running and walking, but I think a lot of what we talk about goes even beyond that. And we have also a pretty detailed discussion about orthotics, plantar fasciitis, and all the common injuries that many of you have probably either heard about, know people who have suffered from or have suffered from yourself. So without further delay, please enjoy my conversation with Irene Davis.
Irene, thanks so much for making time today. I know you're incredibly busy, as evidenced by the fact that you had to change our last meeting in exchange for something that was obviously much more important that we certainly could understand, which was making time to speak with folks at the DOD, and I can imagine how they're very interested in what you do.
Tell me a little bit about how you came to be doing what you are doing. For example, what did you study during your Ph.D.?

**Irene Davis** (3:50)
I'm actually going to go back a little bit further. So when I started out in college, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. I honestly wanted to be an FBI agent and wrote a letter to J. Edgar Hoover, who wrote me a letter back that I still have and framed, that said that women aren't allowed in the FBI. So at that point, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. So I went to school and started taking classes in exercise science, which led me to wanting to understand how the body works and combine it with medicine. And most people who go into physical therapy often think about either medicine or PT. And I decided to go the PT route, got a degree in physical therapy and worked for a while. But I think I've always had an inquisitive mind and I kind of knew that I would go back to school for just for additional education and thought that I would probably end up going on for my PhD. So I went on, I did my master's in biomechanics and then went on to Penn State and did my PhD in biomechanics.