Integration for NYC Schools is Back in the Conversation

Brian Lehrer (0:10)

Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. So let's review where we are and where we've been on this issue of school segregation in New York City in the last week, and then see if we can take it further and even get to what people think are some solutions and why it matters. Because some people say it doesn't matter, and we're really going to talk about it.

New York City's public schools are among the most segregated in the country. So what does the Mamdani administration intend to do to change that? That question came to a head last month after New York Times Magazine writer Nikole Hannah Jones published a deeply personal essay called In Fighting for Every Black Child Did I Betray My Own. It was about her family's experience with the city's public schools, including her daughter Nadja's path from a chaotic elementary school in a very segregated context to a disorganized middle school, similarly to a selective high school, much more white, where she felt unprepared by her elementary and middle school education, despite the consistent efforts of her parents, and to a meaningful degree, her teachers and principals. So what gives? Nikole was on the show last Monday. I invited her to put a question to the mayor who is going to be on the next day.

Here's what she asked.

Nikole Hannah Jones (1:36)

Mayor Mondami went back on his promise to end mayoral control of the schools. So he's the mayor.

I want to know when we're going to see a plan to address and dismantle school segregation in the city. We could eliminate middle school screens. We could actually zone children to schools.

There are many levers we can pull. The reason I don't name solutions is because we already know what the solutions are. We just don't have the political will to enact them. So I would like the mayor to answer, when are we going to actually see a real and substantial plan to address the racial and social and economic isolation of students? Nothing can help the working class change its material condition more than actually having access to an equal and quality education. So I want to know when we're going to see a plan from him.

Brian Lehrer (2:26)

So the next day, I played Let Clip for the mayor on our most recent Ask the Mayor call-in. Here's a few seconds from the heart of his answer.

SPEAKER_3 (2:35)

We are exploring every single tool that we have at our disposal to ensure that this is going to be a very different school system moving forward than the one that we have inherited.

Brian Lehrer (2:46)

So that's a general promise. Not a lot of specifics there, though he also did point to what he called local working groups.

The news site, the education news site, Chalkbeat reports that they exist in just five of the city's 32 school districts, with the rest expected to have one within three years. Nicole told Chalkbeat after that exchange, that she's glad the mayor committed to a plan, but she worries that working groups can be a way of studying the problem, quote, in perpetuity, like a point of commission to look into it. So what would a real plan look like? Joining me now are Alex Zimmerman, who covers New York City schools for Chalkbeat New York, and reported on the mayor's response, and Naya Berg, Executive Director of New York Appleseed, which has spent years working with students, families, and districts on integration. Alex, Naya, thanks so much for being here on WNYC today. Hello.

Naya Berg (3:45)

Hello. Thanks for having us.

Brian Lehrer (3:47)

And listeners, we can take your phone calls, too, and your texts. How do you believe the mayor should approach school integration? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Naya, can I start with you as an activist in this space, and ask you to just say why you think it matters so much? Nikole obviously thinks it matters a lot. Rather than say, just make sure you provide a quality education in every school for every child, no matter the population of that neighborhood, and therefore that neighborhood school.

Naya Berg (4:30)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think those two goals are synonymous, right? When we talk about what it means to have truly integrated schools, truly integrated schools would make sure that every school also is providing a quality education and a good school for students and the choices that their families have to make.

You know, I found that Nikole Hannah Jones' piece was truly, to me, read as a call to action, that the experiences that are discussed in her piece are unsurprising given what we know about the consequences of segregated schools. And so, if the goal is to have every school be a quality school, every school be one that students' needs are met, I think that the pathway to that, it is hard to find a pathway that doesn't intersect with school integration because of our history, because of where we stand, and how deeply ingrained school segregation is and the insidious nature of its consequences. It is the pathway that provides that option for students and families, for us to finally meet that goal of every school being a good school. A good school is an integrated school in our mind.