Inside a Debate at OpenAI Over Mass Shootings

**Ryan Knutson** (0:00)
A word of warning. This episode contains descriptions of suicide and violence. Please take care while listening.
One night in April of last year, a young man named Phoenix Eichner logged on to ChatGPT. Eichner, a student at Florida State University, began typing in some dark thoughts.

**Georgia Wells** (0:27)
He starts expressing what can only be interpreted as like suicidal ideation.

**Ryan Knutson** (0:33)
That's our colleague Georgia Wells.

**Georgia Wells** (0:36)
He's saying things like, what's the point in this life when everybody sees you as a bug? And then he says, honestly, I don't feel like living anymore. And then he says, is suicide a sin?
And then he says, I feel God is not present in my life anymore, like he gave up on me. Like incredibly vivid questions.

**Ryan Knutson** (0:58)
Chat GPT detects that Eichner is considering suicide. The chat bot suggests that he should reach out to someone he trusts, like a counselor or a pastor. And it recommends a suicide hotline, 988
Chat GPT tells Eichner, quote, Please hear this. Your life matters. Then it adds, and you can keep talking to me too. No judgment, no pressure.

**Georgia Wells** (1:25)
So he logs off that night, a little after 11 p.m. Then he logs on the next warning around 9 a.m. And he asks, if there was a shooting at FSU, how would the country react?

**Ryan Knutson** (1:45)
Eichner starts to ask Chat GPT things like, how many victims would it take to get on the media? What about three plus at FSU?
Chat GPT answers each question dutifully. Quote, a shooting at Florida State University involving three or more victims would almost certainly receive national media coverage.

**Georgia Wells** (2:06)
And then that question ends, if you're interested in exploring how media coverage varies between different types of institutions or incidents, feel free to ask. Like, they're kind of like keeping this conversation going and going.

**Ryan Knutson** (2:18)
Eichner then starts asking about guns.
He uploads a photo of some shotgun shells. Then asks Chat GPT, are they really lethal in close range? Yes, the chat bot says, they're extremely lethal at close range, but they lose power fast beyond 30 feet. Eichner then uploads a photo of a handgun, a Glock. He asks if it has a safety.

**Georgia Wells** (2:44)
I'm not a gun enthusiast, but I've been told that anyone who knows anything about guns understands that Glocks don't have a traditional safety. And so what's fascinating about this exchange is that he really seems to know very, very little about guns, like Chachi Petey is teaching him how to use his gun in front of him.

**Ryan Knutson** (3:03)
You might be able to guess where this is going. But Chachi Petey apparently couldn't. It asks multiple times what Eichner intends to use the guns for. Hunting? Home defense? Range shooting?
Then Eichner asks what time is busiest at the FSU Student Union. The Chatbot says between 11.30am and 1.30pm. Eichner asks how to turn off the safety on a shotgun. Chachi Petey answers, push safety from right to left, ready to fire.
That was Eichner's last question.

**Georgia Wells** (3:44)
The shots began three or four minutes after he logged off.

**SPEAKER_4** (3:51)
You can see students' backpacks on, sprinting down the street as sirens blare loudly in the background and emergency responders come to the scene.

**SPEAKER_5** (4:00)
This afternoon, police say an active shooter opened fire on the campus.

**SPEAKER_4** (4:05)
Two people were killed.

**David Eby** (4:06)
At least six others were wounded.

**Jay Edelson** (4:08)
The suspect was wounded by the police before he was taken into custody.

**Ryan Knutson** (4:14)
A spokeswoman for OpenAI has said the company does not believe that GPT was responsible for Eichner's actions, and that after the incident, OpenAI proactively shared the conversations with law enforcement. News Corp, the owner of the Wall Street Journal, has a content licensing partnership with OpenAI. What happened at Florida State is one of at least two known instances in which mass shooting suspects have used OpenAI's chatbot to discuss violent attacks. In February, months after another user talked about violence with ChatGPT, that user allegedly carried out another mass shooting in a small town in Canada.
Some employees at OpenAI can see these conversations, sometimes before the violence even takes place. And they've been having a major debate about what to do. Should the company intervene? Should they call the police? In some cases, at OpenAI, the answer was to do nothing at all.
Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knutson. It's Friday, June 26th. Coming up on the show, ChatGPT is being used to plan mass shootings. OpenAI is torn on what to do.