How Fatherhood Changes Men's Brains

**Brian Lehrer** (0:10)
Brian Lehrer on WNYC.
So some of you heard on Friday, in advance of Father's Day, we had a very moving call in for dads who didn't have fathers when they were growing up, or fathers they considered good role models. Now for the day after, we'll talk about the topic of Dad Brains. Why that? Well, there's a new book by that title, by Darby Saxbe, a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at the University of Southern California, who has spent more than 20 years studying fathers and families. Her new book is Dad Brain, The New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men's Lives, draws on largely her own neuroimaging research. She's one of the few scientists in the world who have collected longitudinal brain scans of men as they become fathers. Professor Saxbe, thanks so much in advance for sharing this with us. Welcome to WNYC.

**Darby Saxbe** (1:07)
Thanks so much for having me on.

**Brian Lehrer** (1:09)
Why did you start looking at dad brains?

**Darby Saxbe** (1:13)
So I write about this in the book, but I saw my own father transform when I was a child after my parents got divorced. We shifted to joint custody, and my brothers and I were alone with him at his house every other week, and I really watched him go from a typical checked out 1980s parent to our primary hands-on caregiver who was responsible for managing our lives.
And when I became a psychologist and set up my own research laboratory, I was always very interested in how parents learn to parent and how they adapt to parenthood. And I wanted to study the brain and the idea of scanning dads to see how their brains changed emerged as the idea I was most excited about exploring.

**Brian Lehrer** (2:02)
Is this in part to provide scientific evidence that it's in the interest of fathers to be more involved with their children rather than not?

**Darby Saxbe** (2:14)
Certainly. I mean, we know that care is transformative and that we learn a lot and that we derive a lot of meaning from the parenting role. And this was something not only that I saw in my laboratory, but in speaking to fathers as I was researching the book about their own experience and what they derived from the parenthood role, that there was a sense of purpose and a sense of legacy and connection that they took inspiration from.

**Brian Lehrer** (2:46)
And listeners, we can invite a few calls here in the time that we have or text. Like maybe younger fathers want to weigh in on how you see yourself parenting differently than your fathers of older generations because things are changing. Are you going into fatherhood with more intentionality? More intention to have better relationships with your kids? I think that's maybe the bottom line of what we heard from those dads who called in on Friday who didn't have fathers or good role model fathers themselves growing up. Those callers thought so much about what kind of father they wanted to be. So much intentionality. How about you? Just in a generational comparison in your family. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.
Do you think if somebody did a brain scan of you as an active father, they would find some benefits for yourself? 212-433-WNYC, call or text?
212-433-9692 for Darby Saxbe, author of Dad Brain, The New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men's Lives. Just as a historical arc question, you document a pretty dramatic shift that's already taken place in fatherhood. Over the past several decades, you write that partnered fathers in the United States nearly quadrupled their daily time with kids since 1965 How much? Because this is certainly not over, right? Launch this conversation with a lot of women in heterosexual marriages with kids, and there's going to be a lot of the same complaint, I think.

**Darby Saxbe** (4:35)
Yes. Sorry, can you say one more time what the complaint might be?

**Brian Lehrer** (4:40)
I think the complaint might be that there's still a second shift. Let's say both parents are working outside the home. The complaint would be, I still do much more than 50% of the child care and other housework compared to the dad.

**Darby Saxbe** (5:00)
Certainly, yes. We've seen this real revolution in how men are spending their time, and dramatic increases in hands-on parenting time in men who are dads, millennials compared to baby boomer fathers, for example. But we also see, interestingly, an increase in daily parenting time in moms as well. So parenting has become more intensive across the board.
In part, that's because we used to be more comfortable letting kids roam free and be with peers, and we now feel more pressure to supervise them closely.