China's growing favorability around the world

**Koucha Navadar** (0:04)
This is Brian Lehrer's Daily Politics Podcast. I'm Koucha Navadar filling in for Brian today. It's Thursday, August 20th.
Let's talk about China. Last month, Pew published a survey of 42,000 adults across 36 countries. And in the broadest reversal since the mid-2000s, Pew reports that in most of those 36 countries, people view China more favorably than the US. In fact, since 2023, the gap between US and China favorability has been narrowing, and this year, it flipped. Now, maybe for some of us, that flip is surprising, but for others, it might feel like a no-brainer after years of friction between the US and its allies. Consider this. One of the countries that Pew asked was Canada, and the survey saw a big flip in that country over the past three years. Canadian favorability of the US dropped by 24 percentage points, while Canadian favorability of China rose by 30 This comes after decades of China's push to increase its soft power, its cultural influence, its appealing economic policies in manufacturing and energy, and now maybe its technological presence, including AI.
What's driving this shift in favorability, and does technology have anything to do with it? With us is Adam Segal from the Council on Foreign Relations, where he is the Ira A. Lipman Chair in Emerging Technologies and National Security and Director of the Digital and Cyberspace Policy Program. He's an expert on security issues, technology development, and Chinese domestic and foreign policy. Adam, welcome to the show.

**Adam Segal** (1:40)
Thanks for having me on.

**Koucha Navadar** (1:41)
Absolutely. Let's start with the Pew survey. What was your reaction when you first saw it?

**Adam Segal** (1:47)
I think a little bit as you framed it, not particularly surprised given the damage to the US reputation, and also the long-term trends about Chinese favorability in many countries, particularly developing economies.

**Koucha Navadar** (2:05)
Yeah. Even though it's a big flip between the US and China's favorability, I bet a lot of people listening wouldn't be surprised as I mentioned. I'm wondering for you, for somebody who has worked in China and with domestic and international policies of China for so long, why does Pew releasing this research really matter at this moment for the US?

**Adam Segal** (2:26)
Well, I think it does point to some of the strengths that China has in competing for influence with the United States around the world. So even if this may be a reflection more of the damage the US has done to itself, it does point to some real trends about how people think about China, and in particular around Chinese economic strength and its rising technological influence.

**Koucha Navadar** (2:55)
Yeah. Have you brought that up? Because China has been trying to increase its favorability, as you said, for decades. Can you take us to the moment or the year or the initiative that really set China on this journey?

**Adam Segal** (3:07)
So in the early aughts, China began thinking about its soft power in the early 2000s. It began talking about having more people come to China and study Chinese language. It set up its first Confucius Institute, which was institutes at universities around the world to teach Chinese culture. And then in 2007, Hu Jintao, who had been the leader before Xi Jinping, made it part of a political document in the need for China to tell its own story around the world. And perhaps the high point was the Olympics.
I don't know. People probably remember the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics and how well staged it was and overwhelming in many cases. And so I think that was really high point.

**Koucha Navadar** (4:11)
I do remember those opening ceremonies. It was jaw-dropping just how many people were coordinating. I think it was the drum routine, right? Is that what you're referring to?

**Adam Segal** (4:22)
The drum routine, the person flying over the stadium, the fireworks. I think the ability to mobilize all of those people, as you said, I think was jaw-dropping for a lot of people.

**Koucha Navadar** (4:35)
I'm happy that you brought up soft power because this to me is really the framing that interested me so much about this conversation. I mean, you talked about the Confucius Institute and bringing folks into the culture.
For me today, it looks like I'm on TikTok and I see trends like China maxing. I don't know if you've heard of that, but for the record, going on TikTok and seeing China maxing is a sentence that would have not made sense 10 years ago, but China maxing is basically like Gen Z people in countries outside of China trying to emulate and romanticize the country's everyday cultural norms. Today, with digital media, do you think things like that are organic viral moments or is it planned somehow through China? Walk me through that.