Canada Is Done With Trump

**SPEAKER_1** (0:00)
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**Michael Barbaro** (0:31)
From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily.

**Mark Carney** (0:43)
In recent days, the United States proposed new terms that were uneconomic, unfair, and called into question the reliability of any deal.

**Michael Barbaro** (0:52)
In a dramatic decision, the Prime Minister of Canada has abruptly cut off negotiations with the US and delivered a message to President Trump that virtually no other world leader before him has dared to convey— that he'd rather engage in a prolonged and ugly trade war than submit to an unfair trade deal with this White House.

**Mark Carney** (1:18)
In short, they asked too much, and they offered too little.

**Michael Barbaro** (1:24)
Today, my colleague, Canada Bureau Chief Matina Stevis-Gridneff, on the American demands that led to the breaking point and Canada's plan to withstand economic warfare with no end in sight.

**SPEAKER_4** (1:40)
Why does it feel like today Mark Carney is going to war?

**Mark Carney** (1:43)
Because we're attacked. You're at war when you get attacked. We got attacked.

**Michael Barbaro** (1:52)
It's Tuesday, August 25th. Matina, welcome back. Always a pleasure.

**Matina Stevis-Gridneff** (2:01)
So good to be back, Michael.

**Michael Barbaro** (2:03)
So I want to disclose something, which is that I have a cold. And as a result, I sound very gravely.
And just for listeners who are public health minded, I'm going to acknowledge that you and I are not in the same room. You are in Canada.

**Matina Stevis-Gridneff** (2:17)
That is correct. I am in Toronto. You're in New York.

**Michael Barbaro** (2:20)
You are so safe.

**Matina Stevis-Gridneff** (2:22)
I am so safe. I am sorry that you have a cold. And I hope you feel better soon.

**Michael Barbaro** (2:26)
Thank you. But no one was infected in the making of this daily episode.

**Matina Stevis-Gridneff** (2:30)
No one in Canada, certainly.

**Michael Barbaro** (2:31)
Nobody in Canada. You have enough problems as it is.
So, Matina, it feels like Canada, the country you cover for The Times, has officially had enough. They are done with the United States.

**Matina Stevis-Gridneff** (2:47)
Yeah, I think that's a really good way of putting it. I think both the Canadian government and, frankly, the majority of Canadians are really done with the Trump administration. And that's why, over the past few days, you may have heard the Prime Minister, Mark Carney, come out and say, we're done with talking, we're walking away, we're now in a trade war with the United States.

**Michael Barbaro** (3:12)
Right. It had all the earmarks of divorce.

**Matina Stevis-Gridneff** (3:15)
Sure feels that way. Maybe if we're going to be optimistic, let's say trial separation.
But in all seriousness, I've been really closely following President Trump's commercial policy, economic policy with other countries, his fights with allies, and how so many of America's allies have fallen into line for him.

**Michael Barbaro** (3:39)
Right.

**Matina Stevis-Gridneff** (3:40)
And Mark Carney has decided to do something totally different. He's taking a massive bet, but he's just decided to walk away from President Trump and take the risk of enduring President Trump's economic and political targeting because he feels that President Trump is not going to make a good and fair and lasting deal with him. The pain and the terms are not worth it, and he's prepared to risk the country's economy on it.

**Michael Barbaro** (4:15)
I mean, if you had to summarize the bet that Prime Minister Carney is taking here, how would you describe it?

**Matina Stevis-Gridneff** (4:22)
I think Mark Carney is betting that his policies to make Canada stronger at home and build Canada's relationships with other countries in Asia and in Europe, and to grow its economy and trade relationships, are enough to keep Canada float and keep Canada growing, even as he turns his back on the United States.

**Michael Barbaro** (4:46)
Well, just explain how Carney gets to the point where he's willing to risk the entire Canadian economy. And as you say, do something that no other world leader really has been willing to do, which is to stand up to President Trump and say, basically, go fly a kite. I'm just not even going to participate in this game.
Because I think most people have lost track of exactly how it is in this very bumpy trade relationship, we got to this very public and potentially catastrophic breaking point.