Brian Deer: A tale of scientific fraud—exposing Andrew Wakefield and the origin of the belief that vaccines cause autism

**Peter Attia** (0:11)
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Now, without further delay, here's today's episode.
My guest this week is Brian Deer. Brian is a multi award-winning investigative journalist, perhaps best known for his inquiries into drug companies and the drug industry in general. But we talk this week about work that he did initially for the Sunday Times of London that ultimately led to a book, The Doctor Who Fooled the World, Science, Deception, and the War on Vaccines.
And as much as it sounds like this is going to be a podcast about vaccines, while it certainly is, it's much more a discussion about fraud in science using this particular example as a case. I read the book as soon as it came out, I believe in the fall of last year, read it again and then reached out to Brian, requesting an interview. Brian was willing to speak, but on the condition that we spoke very briefly, I think he was only willing to speak for maybe 40 minutes, which I said, that's short, but let's take it.
And I suppose to the credit of the fact that he enjoyed the discussion, this discussion obviously goes on much longer than 40 minutes. So what I guess I would say here is I know this is a very polarizing topic and it's polarizing for many reasons, but what I want to accomplish in this episode is actually get to the heart of the story. So unfortunately, I believe too many people enjoy the convenience of opinion without the inconvenience of thought. And I know that sounds like a really harsh thing to say, but if I had a dollar for every time I spoke with a person who had a point of view on something, but didn't fully understand the genesis or etiology of that, I would have a lot of dollars. And I think frankly, I'm probably guilty of that myself in a number of areas, though I try to be mindful of this. So in this episode, what we really do is go to the heart of the issue, which is, where is it that the belief that vaccines cause autism comes from? And to do that, you actually have to really understand the work of one guy named Andrew Wakefield and his collaborators. And we go into that story in great detail. I will not suggest that this podcast is a substitute for actually reading the book and reading other books on this topic. But nevertheless, it's a very good primer on the subject matter. And I would recommend after listening to it, if you find this subject interesting, reading the book as it is both disturbing and riveting at the same time. So without further delay, please enjoy my conversation with Brian Deer.
Brian, thanks so much for staying up somewhat later, I guess in the afternoon, evening, your time. It's really an honor to be able to speak with you here today about such an important topic. I think as I told you when I reached out to you, this is certainly a subject matter I've paid very close attention to for a number of years, but I was still somewhat surprised by some of the revelations in your book. When I first read it, actually had to read it a second time to fully assimilate all of it, at which point I reached out to you and said, look, I'd really love to speak with you. So I'm grateful for the time you've made. I'm sure this is a tale you tell often.

**Brian Deer** (4:00)
Well, thank you, Peter. Good to be here.

**Peter Attia** (4:02)
Let's just get right to the chase. Obviously surveys of people around the world, certainly I can speak in the United States and the UK, a sizable portion of the population believe that autism is likely or probably caused by vaccines. Is that a fair statement today?

**Brian Deer** (4:18)
It's a very well-known opinion. I don't know what the precise polling is at the moment, but yes, there's tended to be quite a strong view about that, particularly I think in North America, not so much in the UK at the moment, but yeah, I think that's true. A lot of people have this idea.