BBC speaks to Nobel laureate Russian journalist

**Oliver Conway** (0:00)
This is The Global News Podcast from the BBC World Service.
Hello, I'm Oliver Conway. This edition is published in the early hours of Thursday, the 13th of August. A Russian Nobel Peace Prize winner tells the BBC, President Putin will never win the war in Ukraine. Karoline Leavitt steps down as White House Press Secretary. And.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:22)
It's gone, we are in darkness.

**SPEAKER_3** (0:25)
It was really, really amazing. It went too quickly for me.

**SPEAKER_4** (0:28)
It was surreal, something out of body experience.

**SPEAKER_5** (0:31)
It's definitely something I'm going to remember for the rest of my life.

**Oliver Conway** (0:34)
Millions across Europe enjoy a solar eclipse.
Also in this podcast, a rule changed to stop war torn countries hosting the Eurovision Song Contest. And how much would you pay to use a public loo?
Vladimir Putin thought his invasion of Ukraine would be a brief military operation. That was four and a half years ago. Russia has suffered big losses on the battlefield. While Ukrainian drone attacks on its oil facilities and on wild berries, Russia's version of Amazon, are causing economic pain. In Russia, public criticism of the authorities carries a risk. But one man who continues to speak out is journalist and Nobel laureate Dmitry Muratov. In Moscow, he sat down for an exclusive interview with our Russia editor Steve Rosenberg.

**Steve Rosenberg** (1:31)
I meet Dmitry Muratov at Novaya Gazeta, the independent newspaper he co-founded in the 1990s. I'm struck by the emptiness, empty corridors, deserted offices.
He tells me that really there is no newspaper anymore. The authorities have revoked its license and blocked its website in Russia. But at a time when independent voices here are being silenced, Mr. Muratov is still speaking out, not without risk.

**Dmitry Muratov** (2:05)
Almost all non-state media outlets have shut.
Most opinion leaders have been declared enemies of the state, foreign agents, extremists or terrorists. Figures vary, but a conservative estimate is that a minimum of 1500 people are now in prison since the beginning of the special military operation, having spoken out against current state policy.

**Steve Rosenberg** (2:33)
Novaya Gazeta built a reputation for fearless reporting on corruption and human rights abuses in Russia. As a result, in 2021 Dmitry Muratov won the Nobel Peace Prize for defending freedom of expression. Just a few weeks later, the world changed.
In February 2022, Vladimir Putin announced Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, as he put it, to ensure Russia's security.

**Dmitry Muratov** (3:07)
Go on, tell me, has security increased with the wild berries warehouses being attacked by Ukrainian drones, the petrol crisis, disrupted mobile internet communications, the political prisoners, has security increased here or not?

**Steve Rosenberg** (3:26)
The so-called special military operation has become the bloodiest conflicts in Europe since World War II.
President Putin continues to predict a Russian victory. Dmitry Muratov is skeptical.

**Dmitry Muratov** (3:41)
Understand this?
There will never be victory. It can't be a victory when two Slavic nations have ripped a million people to shreds. It seems to me that the situation with Ukraine now is this. You can destroy it, but you cannot conquer it. What do I mean by destroy? Continued escalation all the way to nuclear war.

**Steve Rosenberg** (4:16)
This year, I've heard several Russian commentators championing the idea of a nuclear strike on the West. For example, the ultra-conservative oligarch, Konstantin Malafyev, outlined what he called a good scenario for Russia. It included the use of a nuclear weapon.
Some dismiss such talk as empty threats. But Dmitry Muratov points out, no one really knows what the president is thinking or planning.

**Dmitry Muratov** (4:45)
All those political experts who say Putin thinks this. Putin must have decided so and so. They are all charlatans.
Nobody knows what's going on in Vladimir Putin's head. I see things only as a journalist. I study big data. And since the beginning of the year, the need to use nuclear weapons has been mentioned over 500 times.

**Steve Rosenberg** (5:12)
The Russian state has designated Dmitry Muratov a foreign agent, a label often used here to punish critics of the Kremlin. They are banned from taking part in elections and from teaching.
It's also designed to create the sense in society of an enemy within. But Mr. Muratov prefers to focus not on his problems, but on those of his compatriots who are in jail.

**Dmitry Muratov** (5:39)
What worries me most right now is that no one in the world has any interest in the political prisoners who were the first to speak out against the land grab in our neighbouring country.

**Steve Rosenberg** (5:51)
From a folder, he takes out a stack of photos of Russians behind bars. There's a journalist, a local counsellor, a 70-year-old pediatrician and a pianist, Pavel Kushnir, who was arrested after posting anti-war videos. There's a second photo of the pianist. In a coffin, Pavel Kushnir had died in pre-trial detention during a hunger strike. He was 39