Zelenskyy’s Corruption Problem and Is History Repeating Itself in Germany?

**Alastair Campbell** (0:01)
Andy Burnham's first foreign trip as Prime Minister wasn't to Washington, wasn't to Paris, wasn't to Brussels, it was to Kyiv on Ukraine's Independence Day. But as the war grinds into its fifth year, President Zelenskyy is facing serious difficulties at home, including an open challenge to his leadership from a former ally, and continuing questions about corruption. So is the tide at home turning against President Zelenskyy, and what does this mean for Ukraine's war efforts? And with America cutting off almost all direct financial support for Ukraine, the position of European leaders is ever more crucial. Not least in Germany, which is where I am right now, which alongside the UK is among the biggest financial supporters of Ukraine. Right here, right now, the hard right and the hard left party appear to be uniting in a pro-Russia, anti-Ukraine stance. This comes ahead of an election in Saxony-Anhalt next month, which the extreme right, AfD, are poised to win. And it leaves many of us wondering and worrying, has Germany forgotten the lessons of its own history? And what does this all mean for Ukraine and for European unity?
Welcome to The Rest Is Politics with me, Alastair Campbell.

**Rory Stewart** (1:18)
And me, Rory Stewart.

**Alastair Campbell** (1:19)
And we are going to talk about Andy Burnham's trip to Ukraine. We're going to talk about the state of the war between Ukraine and Russia. And then in the second half, we're going to talk about where I am, Germany, and not least the impact that the rise of the far right and a potential deal that they're doing with the hard left party might actually have on the future of the war in Ukraine. But Rory, let's start with Andy Burnham's first foreign trip. Interesting that it was not to Washington, it was not to Paris, it was not to Brussels, it was to Kiev, very deliberately, I suspect.

**Rory Stewart** (1:51)
As you say, he's somebody who people maybe have characterised as more of a domestic prime minister. Stammer having got criticism a bit like maybe Mark Carney, that he wasn't around enough. And we can get on to that later because that's partly, I guess, the story about how the world's changing and how world leaders feel they need to be on the road much more.

**Alastair Campbell** (2:09)
And maybe we should say here as well, Rory, that because Mark Carney, Donald Trump, bust up as being one of the biggest stories in the world this week, we are going to be leading question time on that tomorrow.

**Rory Stewart** (2:17)
Absolutely. So I think that's the first thing, which is that it's beginning to flesh out what his foreign policy might be. And I think there's a lot of interesting things actually with Burnham there. People looking at him in Manchester said he didn't talk much about foreign policy, he wasn't very interested in AI, and he certainly rebuked me on AI by bringing in an AI minister sitting in the cabinet and appointing Chief Scientific Advisor to do a big commission on AI, and now he sends foreign policy trip to Ukraine. And he's also done something quite interesting in Ukraine, which is to take another step, which is to allow Ukraine to manufacture things that require British licenses in Ukraine with the French.

**Alastair Campbell** (2:56)
And British intelligence.

**Rory Stewart** (2:57)
And British intelligence, and brought the anger of Russia more against Britain, which is part of a general pattern of every time Ukraine's allies have done something over the last four years, the Russians have signaled, this is the limit, and we will retaliate in some unspecified way.

**Alastair Campbell** (3:13)
Yeah. I'm really, really glad that he went. It was Ukraine Freedom Independence Day. It was the place where he chaired with Macron, his first coalition of the willing. I thought it was really interesting that he very directly linked Britain's role in defending Europe against the Nazis, with Ukraine now doing the leadership role in terms of defending Europe against Russia and against Putin's Russia. So I thought he spoke well. I think this was, it wasn't just a kind of straightforward political support visit, because as you say, this was a big deal. This is something that the Ukrainians have been asking for for some time. I listened to an interview yesterday while I was driving through Germany with a Ukrainian, I don't know who this person was, but somebody worthy of being on the radio, who said that if this had happened a few years ago, it would have been a massive game changer. As it stands now, it's very, very, very helpful. I spoke last night with somebody who works with Zelenskyy, he's part of his inner circle, who said that the meeting went well, it was warm, they appreciated, he said, both the words and the actions in relation to the British storm shadow. But the other thing I think is worth just reflecting on, is things are very tough for the Ukrainians right now. They're very tough for the Russians. The Ukrainians to some extent are, they are slowly winning back a bit of ground, but it's costing a lot of money and life.