Why Your Copy Isn't Converting w/ Joanna Wiebe | Ep 451

Joanna Wiebe (0:00)

Our winning headline was big bum, thick waist, not so perky boobs?

Find clothes you love perfect for your size and shape or something like that. That was voice of customer data. That was them actually saying those exact things. The line before that was something like find clothes you love or something, which is what most people default to. Nobody cared about it, but that came from what people were saying. And so to find that personality is just like step back, shush, and like listen to what your customers say and how they say it.

Chris Do (0:30)

You just did problem agitate solution again, didn't you?

Joanna Wiebe (0:33)

Probably. I live, I live past this.

Chris Do (0:34)

Well, you said big bum, thick waist. Did you say not big boobs?

Joanna Wiebe (0:38)

Not so perky boobs.

Chris Do (0:40)

Find the clothes that fit you. That was the problem. You agitated it, and then the solution is clothes that work for you.

Joanna Wiebe (0:46)

It's true. It just works. My name is Joanna Wiebe, and you are listening to The Futur.

Chris Do (0:56)

We've got a pretty cool guest that's going to share with us all her copywriting secrets and her remarkable story about how just a few short months ago, she's been struggling to grow on YouTube, and then she's done something incredible. And now she's got over 3,000 percent growth in her YouTube channel. I want to tease you with that, but really want to learn how to be better communicators through our writing. I can't think of a better person to have here live in studio with us. Joanna, welcome to the show.

Joanna Wiebe (1:20)

Thanks. This is cool. This is so awesome. Thanks everybody for being here.

Chris Do (1:24)

Let's quickly get some context for people who are like, what am I tuning in to?

Joanna Wiebe (1:28)

So I'm Jo. I run a company called CopyHackers. I am the original conversion copywriter as in invented it, if we can say that, after being at a tech company for a very long time and being frustrated by how it wasn't working. The copy wasn't working, so came up with a different thing called conversion copywriting and have been consulting and teaching that for coming up on 15 solid years.

Chris Do (1:53)

A mutual friend, Dan Martell, he called you the world's greatest living copywriter. That is a lofty, lofty title.

Joanna Wiebe (2:00)

I think he just likes saying it, honestly. I think he's just like, it sounds good.

Chris Do (2:03)

It sounds really good.

Joanna Wiebe (2:05)

I'll take it all day. I'll take that.

Chris Do (2:07)

And there's different kinds of copywriters.

Joanna Wiebe (2:08)

Exactly.

Chris Do (2:08)

Let's start there. What are the different kinds and what kind are you?

Joanna Wiebe (2:11)

So many different kinds and I'm not the creative kind. I don't win awards, but I help businesses make money. So that's always for me been a really like, I know a lot of creatives just kind of died inside when they heard that.

But that's been the part that's less guesswork. So I struggle with people giving me feedback. I don't enjoy it very much when it's just like random feedback, like I don't like this, I don't like that. And that's like creatives get that a lot. And so I had to move out of like focusing on the creative into, well, but like it doesn't matter what you like or don't like with this email, it matters if it performs well. And so that's the kind that I do. So there's creative copywriters looking up with tagline or like a phrase that pays.

And then there's the conversion copywriters. And we write things that perform or should do at least. And then we measure them to see if it actually is performing or not. And then we optimize. And it's all based on voice of customer data and old school direct response stuff, which is where people start really glazing.

Chris Do (3:13)

So there's the kind of advertising and copywriting that I'm familiar with that I worked in the last 20 plus odd years, which is headlines and image and campaigns, national campaigns, they do win awards. It's the glossy, sexy stuff. It's the image, it's the brand, but it might not sell a single thing. It might not. They think it does.

So conversion copywriting, direct response copywriting, they're the same, yes or no?

Joanna Wiebe (3:36)

Ish.

Chris Do (3:37)

Yeah.

Joanna Wiebe (3:37)

But like direct response can get really like gritty and ugly and be pretty off putting today and like when design does matter and there's like a signal there, a trust signal that it just loses. A direct response typically. But yes, conversion copywriting is based in direct response, which is just like listen to what your customers say and then put that into a framework.