Why Things Become Popular, with Chuck Klosterman

Derek Thompson (0:05)

Today, Chuck Klosterman.

In his latest book, Rock, Klosterman writes an alternative history of 20th century music. He imagines a world in which the Velvet Underground becomes the biggest mainstream rock band in history. The Beatles fade into obscurity, the Rolling Stones call it quits early, and Led Zeppelin also collapses. On today's show, Chuck and I talk about his alternative history book, his thoughts on music, culture, contingency, why things become popular, and the decline of reading. I thought about writing a big, messy open for today, but honestly, when you've got Chuck, I think the best plan is always just let Chuck cook. I'm Derek Thompson.

SPEAKER_2 (1:18)

At Edward Jones, we believe rich isn't about having life all figured out. It's opening yourself to all the possibilities. That's why your dedicated financial advisor provides long-term planning built around you, meeting you where you are, and helping you get closer to where you want to be.

So no matter where you're starting from, you can move forward with confidence.

The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich. Edward Jones, member SIPC.

Derek Thompson (1:49)

Did you know Uber has a range of safety features for riders? Like the Share My Trip feature that lets you send your live location to the people who matter most, your spouse, your kids, your best friend, so they can track your ride and make sure you get where you're going. But the safety doesn't stop there. Uber requires every driver to pass a thorough background check before they can start driving. This consists of a multi-step screening process that checks for impaired driving or criminal offenses followed by annual background checks each and every year moving forward. Share My Trip and annual driver screenings are just a few of Uber's many safety features that put safety at every turn.

Learn more at uber.com/safety.

Annual driving history reruns do not apply in New York City. Chuck Klosterman, welcome back to the show.

Chuck Klosterman (2:38)

Great to be here there, Derek.

Derek Thompson (2:40)

So your new book is Rock with an asterisk because it is an alternative history of pop music. Where did this crazy idea of writing an alternative, which is to say fictional history of music come from?

Chuck Klosterman (2:56)

You know, I don't think there is any singular inception point. It was just the kind of thing for 25 years that me and various friends of mine have often joked about where we talked about music so much that at some point, you have to start talking about things that didn't happen or could have happened.

And I can't really answer the question. I think that the question almost suggests like there's something I'm trying to really prove with this. And what I'm mainly trying to do is just make a book that is entertaining and funny for people who've spent a lot of time thinking about music and maybe have run out of ways to think about it in a way. You know, it's just like a fun thing that I was compelled to do and I don't really know why.

Derek Thompson (3:43)

There are all sorts of alternative histories that you could have written here. You could have elevated any number of bands of sub-Beatle's fame to super-Beatle's fame and said that they're going to be the new sun around which the solar system of the music world revolves. Why did you choose Velvet Underground and Nika, that album?

Chuck Klosterman (4:01)

Well, see, I don't think there was a bunch I could have chosen. I think it had to almost be this one because in my view, the Velvet Underground are kind of ground zero for the idea that there are critics' bands and bands for serious music inside people, and then there are commercial bands for the world at large, and there's this chasm. And that has, over the last 20 years, has actually sort of come together. You see less of that now. But through the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, there was like this dissonance between sort of the meaning of things that were very popular and things that seem to be more avant-garde or art-based or almost consciously cultic. So I think it really had to be them. I don't think it, I mean, you could argue this book doesn't work as it is, but it wouldn't have worked with anybody else. It had to be them.

Derek Thompson (4:57)

Why do you think that chasm closed? I know where you're going with this, but I'd love to hear you unspool this a little bit. This idea that there used to be a valley between the critics bands and the commercial bands, and over time, the tectonic plates have moves that that valley has shrunk and shrunk and shrunk, and now it's just one big, you know, optimist plane.