Why NATO’s chief thinks Trump was right (with Mark Rutte)

**Mark Rutte** (0:00)
I strongly believe that the NATO we had only three or four years ago, going forward, would not have been sustainable.

**Dasha Burns** (0:09)
Hello, hello, and welcome to The Conversation. I'm Dasha Burns, and every week on this show, I talk to the most compelling and sometimes unexpected power players in Washington and beyond. And this week, I sat down with NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte.
Rutte is ever the optimist. He's the guy determined to keep the NATO family together. And that is a tall order these days. We spoke on the first day of this year's NATO Summit in Ankara, Turkey, and he was hopeful that the week's meetings attended by all 32 world leaders would solidify bonds between the allied member nations. But the reason those bonds have been called into question in the first place?
Donald Trump. And at this summit, the president caused some whiplash. He began the last day with a tense Ruta meeting, in which he said he was, quote, not happy with NATO and threatened certain allies with consequences. But a mere eight hours later, there was a total vibe shift.

**Felicia Schwartz** (1:07)
The unity in that room was incredible.

**Jack Detsch** (1:10)
The, the, really, a love.

**Felicia Schwartz** (1:12)
It was sort of pretty wild.

**Dasha Burns** (1:14)
There was a love in that room that was great.

**Mark Rutte** (1:16)
So this was a tremendously successful summit.

**Dasha Burns** (1:20)
My colleagues, Felicia Schwartz and Jack Detsch, who also covered the NATO Summit, joined me for the second part of the pod to discuss their takeaways. But first, NATO Secretary General, Mark Rutte, joins The Conversation.
Mr. Secretary General, thank you so much for joining The Conversation here in Ankara for the NATO Summit in 2026 Can you believe it?

**Mark Rutte** (1:43)
Absolutely. And good to see you again and thank you for having me.

**Dasha Burns** (1:47)
I want to start with the stakes here because, Mr. Secretary, this summit begins under extraordinary circumstances. NATO is asking allies to undertake the biggest increase in defense spending in history. Russia's war in Ukraine still rages on and is now escalating. The conflict in the Middle East is still continuing, and questions remain about America's long-term role in European security.
Have you ever walked into a NATO summit where the stakes felt higher than they do this morning?

**Mark Rutte** (2:20)
Well, I feel excited, and I'm really excited to have this opportunity to have this interview, because not enough people, I think, have already grasped that this is transformational. It is really fundamental what is going to happen today and tomorrow. And basically, many people think, hey, why do we have to do all of this and spend extra money and, of course, Ukraine? Most of us, of course, agree it has to be done.
But this is transformational for only one reason, because I strongly believe that the NATO we had only three or four years ago, going forward, would not have been sustainable. Over relying on the United States, you are not spending enough, not producing enough, both in the US and in Europe. And all of this is now changing rapidly. And this is really great.

**Dasha Burns** (3:07)
Yeah, the center of this is the NATO allies committing to an increase of defense by extending to 5% of GDP by 2035 This is of course a major priority for President Trump. You've said that the goals of this summit are delivery and implementation of that commitment. You've talked a lot about countries needing a credible path to 5%.
And I'm curious, what in your mind makes a plan credible? And by whose standard? Who is setting that standard? Is it you? Is it the allies? Is it President Trump?

**Mark Rutte** (3:37)
Well, of course, we do this collectively. And we've got to do this because of the Russians' threat. And we see what the Russians are doing in Ukraine. So we cannot continue on a path where, one, the Europeans are spending less than 2%, as they did only a couple of years ago. And two, where the Europeans were not spending the same as the US was spending.
And therefore having this over-reliance on the United States, this is all changing. A credible path means that you reach the 25% target in 2035, not, let's say, by just increasing your spending in 2034 and then doing everything in one year, but doing it in an incredible way, like so many Allies are already doing. Look at Germany, which will already reach the 3.5% in 2029 and brought a budget yesterday to Parliament, which will in one year increase defense spending in Germany by tens of billions. This is staggering. We have not seen it in the last 60, 70 years.