Why Government Hiring Is So Inefficient

SPEAKER_2 (0:02)

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Joe Weisenthal (0:18)

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.

Tracy Alloway (0:23)

And I'm Tracy Alloway.

Joe Weisenthal (0:24)

Tracy, remember that episode we did several weeks ago about waste and fraud and abuse in Medicare?

Tracy Alloway (0:31)

I do. It was full of interesting facts and figures, such as the US government spends 1% of the federal budget on dialysis.

Joe Weisenthal (0:39)

And the thing about that episode, so we were talking to BU Professor Jetson, Leader Louise, you know, the thing about that episode that's striking is if you look at government spending, and probably a lot of all bureaucracies even outside the government, but if you look at government spending or government waste or government fraud, et cetera, there are many things that everyone can point to and say, this is waste, this is bad, we should change this. But like that's clearly just being able to like identify some bad process or whether it's in how purchasing works or how hiring works or anything, like clearly that's not enough to fix it. Like identification almost seems like the easy part.

Tracy Alloway (1:20)

No, I think this is actually endemic in a lot of large organizations. Although I am certain there are specific things about the government process that are unique to them, but it feels like at large organizations, everyone kind of feels helpless, right? Like everyone can say, we need to do this better or this is ridiculous or we should change this. But no one actually seems able to fix it.

Joe Weisenthal (1:43)

Yeah. Anyway, yes, this is my perception as well. But we are in an era, you know, the vibes have changed. We are in an era where once again, and probably because inflation remains high, people see the obvious failures of what people call state capacity. You know, there was a lot of stuff built under the Biden administration. There was a lot of stuff allocated. People are frustrated by the speed of things. Whether you look at charging stations or rural broadband, or the speed with which any project gets implemented, we're in a moment of frustration. And people want to see two things. They want to see waste and spending decline in many cases. And they also want to see that the spending that we actually do allocate turns into results.

Tracy Alloway (2:31)

Good results.

Joe Weisenthal (2:32)

Right, we're in a period where, setting aside what will happen, et cetera, like there is this public impulse, like we want to see results for things that we do.

Tracy Alloway (2:41)

Speaking of good results, can I just say the last time we spoke to this guest, who we are about to speak to again, we were complaining about how clunky the Treasury Direct website is, and how you had to click little buttons to get in instead of just typing your password. And I think shortly after that, someone sent me a screenshot and said that they had fixed it. Amazing. So, you know, this podcast can lead to real results.

Joe Weisenthal (3:07)

Yeah, maybe that's the answer. We just need to do podcast episodes on various things that aren't working and that someone hears it and stuff like that. But yes, this is a we are in an era for people demanding results. Anyway, you mentioned that last episode we did with this guest. She really is the perfect guest to talk about now in this era of doge and the sort of impulse to see government root out waste and fraud and abuse. And become more efficient. We are going to be speaking with Jennifer Pahlka. She is the author of the book, Recoding America, currently serving as a senior fellow at the Niskanen Center. She was the founder and former director of the Code for America Initiative. She's been on the Defense Innovation Board. So has seen how government actually operates and spends and works and builds technology at a very granular level. Perfect guest to have back on. So, Jennifer, thank you so much for coming back on Odd Lots.

Jennifer Pahlka (4:00)

Yeah, no, thanks for having me.

Joe Weisenthal (4:02)

You know, when it comes to government spending and waste, you know, I think there are sort of two things that people... I think it's sort of useful to divide the conversation in two things, because there are major things that the government spends money on, like various entitlements or having a large military, etc., that some might consider wasteful, per se, right? And then, there is the other aspect which is just like within the realm of things that many people agree we need, is the government getting the best bang for the buck within the sort of expectation that this is, you know, legitimate spending. And so, some of these fights that in conversations that are going to be held under the new administration are going to be in the first category, where it's like big political questions about where we should be allocating our money. But from your perspective, even setting that aside, when you look at sort of the actual expenditure, like, do you see big dials that can be turned in terms of this can be done better?