Why does ICE want to use electronic shock gloves?

**SPEAKER_1** (0:01)
WBUR Podcasts, Boston.

**Ryan Schwank** (0:06)
Based on what we've seen from the way officers lose their temper and behave in public recently, it concerns me deeply that officers might use these gloves inappropriately.

**Kalyani Saxena** (0:17)
After deadly shootings this year, ICE is now giving its agents gloves that deliver electric shocks.
It's Thursday, August 13th, and this is Here & Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR, Boston. I'm Kalyani Saxena. Today on the show, we'll get an update on the Haitian community in Ohio. After hundreds of thousands of Haitians in the US lost their temporary protected status last month.

**Viles Dorsainvil** (0:54)
I am afraid, but I cannot let it overcome and not to speak because at the end of the day, there should be a person who is the voice of the voiceless.

**Kalyani Saxena** (1:03)
Also, we'll zoom over to Alaska and touch base with Here & Now's own Peter O'Dowd. He's speaking to residents as waters rise in Juneau from a glacial flood.

**Don Habager** (1:14)
We know it's coming.

**Ryan Schwank** (1:16)
It's like a slow-moving bullet.

**Kalyani Saxena** (1:17)
You can see it, but you don't know when it's going to hit.

**Peter O'Dowd** (1:22)
You just don't know.

**Ryan Schwank** (1:23)
The unknown is crazy stressful.

**Kalyani Saxena** (1:26)
But first, after a year of making headlines for using deadly force against civilians, US. Immigration and Customs Enforcement is planning to equip its agents with gloves that can deliver painful electric shocks.
Yes, you heard that right. The Department of Homeland Security plans to spend up to $20 million on these new gloves, and it's calling them de-escalation devices. Ryan Schwank is an ICE whistleblower who previously trained new officers. He spoke with Scott Tong about the new gloves.

**Scott Tong** (2:01)
These gloves have, I understand, a button to deliver an electric shock, and videos on the manufacturer's Instagram page show people falling to the floor screaming when they're shocked. In your view, are these a good idea?

**Ryan Schwank** (2:16)
So these are not necessarily a good idea in the way ICE is likely to deploy. I've done a lot of reading on these, and in very limited circumstances, for instance, in jails or situations where there's a lot of control over how they're used, these are a viable device, but not in the most likely scenarios where ICE is going to use them.

**Scott Tong** (2:35)
Yeah. Well, they're described as de-escalation devices. I wonder if you can contextualize, how are ICE agents trained to de-escalate, and how might these fit in or not fit in?

**Ryan Schwank** (2:49)
So ICE officers receive a limited amount of training of de-escalation. It's not anywhere near the level other law enforcement agencies receive.
These gloves are primarily used in up close hand-to-hand situations, and they're described as de-escalation because essentially what they do is they deliver an immense amount of pain to a small location, and that causes the person who is being touched by the glove to fall to the ground. In theory, that means that they de-escalate because the officer doesn't have to use hard techniques, you know, a baton, a chokehold, an arm bar. They can disable the person just by using the glove.

**Scott Tong** (3:25)
Understand. Now, the manufacturers' materials that accompany the products say these gloves should not be used to control verbal defiance or for belligerent people or for punishment or torture. As a former trainer for new ICE officers, are you confident that they will be properly trained to use these?

**Ryan Schwank** (3:47)
They, in order for them to use these gloves, they're going to have to go through a whole new training program. There's going to have to be a class developed. There's going to have to be something put in place to make sure the officers know when and how to use them. But based on what we've seen from the way officers lose their temper and behave in public recently, it concerns me deeply that officers might use these gloves inappropriately.

**Scott Tong** (4:08)
Yeah. So, I mean, is there a scenario you worry about?

**Ryan Schwank** (4:15)
Yes. So, from what I understand of these gloves, they're not likely to cause permanent injury or death. The mechanism doesn't seem to allow for that. But it does allow an officer to hurt someone.
We've seen officers who've lost their temper with people in crowds. We've seen officers lose their temper with bystanders who protest or object to the officers' actions. I can absolutely see a scenario where an officer deploys these gloves against someone who is absolutely unjustified. In order to induce pain, to stop them from yelling at them, or to stop somebody from complaining. One of the big fears I have is these gloves essentially leave no record behind when they're used.