What Tim Cruz Said After Lindsay Clancy’s 11-1 Split

SPEAKER_1 (0:00)

This is The Big Breakdown, a long look back at some of the biggest stories we're covering for you at the Hidden Killers Podcast and True Crime Today. This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Brueski and Robin Green.

Tony Brueski (0:17)

Throughout this episode, we've unpacked the fierce public division and the disturbing conspiracy theories surrounding the Lindsay Clancy tragedy. But to truly understand why this case is completely short-circuited, we have to look at the underlying emotion driving all of this anger, primal fear. There is a deep unspoken terror in admitting that the ultimate symbol of safety, a mother, can be hijacked by a biological sickness. People are lashing up because accepting the reality of severe postpartum psychosis means accepting that we're not always in control of our own minds. We're breaking it down with Shavaun Scott, psychotherapist, and Robin Drake, retired FBI special agent, chief of the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program.

Shavaun, society has this deeply ingrained, almost sacred archetype of the perfect protective mother, whether we had one or not. When a case like this happens, it doesn't just seem to shock people, it completely short circuits our foundational understanding of maternal instinct. How much of the public's vitriol is actually just a defense mechanism?

To protect this idea that mothers can't do this. This is an impossibility. This is not who they are. So why could this possibly be unless she's possessed by the devil?

Shavaun Scott (1:41)

Yeah. Creating a monster, as people have done in this case, I think allows psychological distance for people. It's like, well, that's, as you say, somebody who's demon possessed or someone who's just evil. And normal mothers would never do something like this. And yes, we have this vision of mothers as this special category of humans. And I can tell you, as I'm sure you run into, but I've certainly run into in my line of work, not all mothers love their children. Surprise. They just don't.

And sometimes many women, I mean, I hear this in therapy, where people will talk about the things that they don't talk about to other people, at least that's supposed to be how it works.

There are mothers who regret having their children. And they'll say, I was never really cut out for this. And that certainly wasn't the case in Lindsay's situation, who loved being a mother, who did a wonderful job. But there is this blowback, I think you nailed it, from people who just don't want to acknowledge that there's not an immediate intents. I mean, I think people have theories about women are biologically destined to bond and to be nurturing. And I don't think that that's true. I think that's a myth. And we need to understand that, so that women can feel safe enough when they're struggling to come to somebody and disclose, I'm having a hard time here and I just need help and support. I'm not adjusting to this. I'm worn out, I'm exhausted. All the things that real women say.

Robin Drake (3:27)

So, Shavaun, in order for progress to happen in these areas that we wish them to happen in, it takes an ability to have a conversation, a dialogue as we've been talking about all day and for almost weeks now in this case. And we look at the five factor model of personality assessment like we did before we started the show.

Two main areas, I think, really impact the ability for someone to have a great conversation about this and be open to ideas and to innovate solutions and to be a critical thinker. And that is the ability to be open to new ideas and the agreeableness to have a good conversation without devolving into hatred, rants and everything else. And so when you're dealing with someone that we've been seeing ourselves around with that aren't open and aren't agreeable to have them conversations as a therapist, when you see this coming across your plate, I'm going to put you on the spot. You always ask those great questions and you give us great therapy examples. How do you inspire someone to start moving down the path to be more open and to be more agreeable when you encounter them?

Shavaun Scott (4:33)

Whenever I feel like I'm butting up against somebody's rigid defense mechanism, it usually doesn't work to say, you're full of shit.

I've done that. I'm not always in my best frame of mind. But I try to be curious and get them to say more about, why do you think this way? Why do you feel this way? What is this bringing up for you?

I'm very open about using my family because I wrote about it in my book. I've got mentally ill people in my family, and I'll disclose that. That's when I go back to, I grew up with an aunt with schizophrenia living with us part of the time, and the crazy things that happened, and that has made me curious, which is one of the reasons I studied psychology. I want to understand the human mind. Why do people do weird things? Why do they have the struggles they have? And so just if we can stay calm and in our thinking brain and be curious and ask the person to say more, and that then can open the door and they can become less defensive, and then I'm very open about using myself. Or as I said, you know, heart disease, brain disease, it's all the same biologically, we can all get something like that, and just come from a place of my own curiosity, openness and compassion. And that's when I'm in my thinking brain and my best self.