What Humans, Animals and Plants Tell Us About Consciousness | Michael Pollan

Michael Pollan (0:00)

I came out of this experience of studying consciousness and looking at all the theories of consciousness. I don't want to give it away, but we have no idea about consciousness, really, how brain matter generates consciousness, if indeed that's how it happens. And there are people who doubt that's how it happens. It could be that the brain channels consciousness, right? I mean, that if you conceive of consciousness as like electromagnetic waves, brains are like radio receivers or TV receivers. You wouldn't look in the TV set for the woman who gave you the weather report.

She's not there, she's somewhere else. So, I don't know that that's true, but coming out of this experience of studying this, I don't dismiss an idea like that. You have to keep an open mind because our presumption that consciousness is an emergent property of brain complexity, that idea doesn't have much traction.

Andrew D. Huberman (0:55)

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Michael Pollan, author of landmark books including How to Change Your Mind, which is about psychedelics, The Botany of Desire, which is about how humans and plants co-evolved and collaborated to thrive, and The Omnivore's Dilemma, which is an incredible book about food and nutrition, and most recently, the book A World Appears, A Journey Into Consciousness. Michael Pollan is considered by many, including me, to be one of the most learned and thoughtful people on topics that matter to all humans and the things that we can do to improve the human experience. Today, we talk about many topics, but mostly we focus on consciousness, and Michael brings forward a new perspective that integrates the best science on this topic as well as philosophy and beyond. And we get deep into this notion of the ego, meaning our notion of self, and how the ego is both important for and limits our understanding of ourselves and life. I should emphasize that the conversation is not as abstract as I'm making it sound. What I love about Michael Pollan is he makes these topics very clear and very concrete, and in many cases, actionable. Thanks to Michael, by the end of today's conversation, you will be placed at the front edge of the conversation and the data on this thing that we call consciousness. You'll also be versed on the latest of plant what is sometimes called psychedelic medicine, and perhaps most importantly, what you can do in your life to gain new perspective on yourself, others, and the planet at large. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Michael Pollan. Michael Pollan, welcome.

Michael Pollan (2:52)

Thank you, good to be here.

Andrew D. Huberman (2:53)

Long time fan of your books, of you.

I've had the privilege of speaking on stage next to you, although mostly I was just listening to you because you are this amazing intersection of science writer. You've written about food, psychedelics, now consciousness. You'll tell us about your new work on microbiome. I feel like there's also some Wendell Berry woven in there.

Michael Pollan (3:16)

Big Wendell Berry. I didn't insult you. I didn't shout out that. Not at all. We just lost him too.

Andrew D. Huberman (3:21)

Oh, is that right?

Michael Pollan (3:22)

He died like two weeks ago. Oh my goodness. I know.

Andrew D. Huberman (3:25)

I'm like a huge Wendell Berry fan.

Michael Pollan (3:27)

Really? Me too. Oh my goodness. He taught me how to write and he taught me how to think about certain things. But I know he had a huge influence on it. I was very fond of him.

Andrew D. Huberman (3:36)

Did you ever meet him?

Michael Pollan (3:37)

Oh yeah. I interviewed him on stage a few times. He interviewed me in Lexington, Kentucky about one of my books. I went to his house and saw the long-legged house where he writes on the river. He was always trying to convince people like us about the beauty of the tobacco culture.

He bracketed the cigarette piece and the lung cancer piece. But the culture was so beautiful and it was the one time where the whole community got together and racial lines were crossed and the barns are gorgeous, the tobacco barns with the slots for drying. So he wanted me to see those when I came there.