Touch Grass: Andrew Yang Returns To Talk Phone Addiction, AI's Cognitive Toll, & The Fight For Your Attention

**Rich Roll** (0:01)
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**Andrew Yang** (0:51)
These guys are rectangles of sadness. Of course, it's addictive. It's actually eroding our well-being.

**SPEAKER_3** (0:57)
Disturbing new study found a link between technology and depression.

**SPEAKER_4** (1:01)
Research confirms that excessive smartphone use presents itself a lot like addiction.

**Rich Roll** (1:05)
We know they're connected to prescient anxiety.

**Andrew Yang** (1:09)
The dangers are hiding in there.

**SPEAKER_3** (1:11)
Joining us right now is Andrew Yang. He's a former candidate for president.

**Andrew Yang** (1:15)
We know these tools are indispensable, but also that they're eating our brains and mental health.

**Rich Roll** (1:21)
This thing is eroding our ability to think clearly, to focus. It's changing our neurology. It's impairing our physical health, obviously our mental health. Your life is on the line.
Andrew, so good to see you, man. Thank you for doing this.

**Andrew Yang** (1:37)
Rich, I am back here in the Rich Rolliverse.

**Rich Roll** (1:40)
We're having an Alfresco experience, a little touch grass moment, which is apropos for the conversation I want to have with you about the benefits of an analog life.

**Andrew Yang** (1:50)
Yes, very apropos, very uplifting.

**Rich Roll** (1:53)
It's pretty common to hear someone say, like, I'm just addicted to my smartphone. Do you think that this is like a legitimate addiction, or is it just an obsessive, compulsive relationship that we have? Like, how do you think about, like, that?

**Andrew Yang** (2:11)
Of course, it's addictive.
And of course, it's a real thing. I mean, you can see the generational impact it's had on, unfortunately, young girls over the last number of years. Do you know Jonathan Haidt?

**Rich Roll** (2:28)
Yes.

**Andrew Yang** (2:28)
Yeah. So Jonathan wrote the book, The Anxious Generation and Raise the Alarm. But the data was clear, and the data was there as early as 2017 in Jean Twenge's book, iGen, which is when I saw it. So even when I was running for president, I was like, hey guys, FYI, these devices not great for our kids. And so you know that if it's having that effect on our children, it's having an effect on us too. It's just not quite as severe because our brains matured in a different way.
And maybe the way we use the smartphone is a little bit different. But it's an addiction for sure, and it can have very, very negative effects. I mean, walking the streets of New York, I can't tell you how many people just have their smartphone out and then occasionally they bump into you or someone.

**Rich Roll** (3:20)
You're just walking into people.

**Andrew Yang** (3:21)
And you know, you know, I mean, heck, even when I'm driving the streets of New York, have I seen someone just like walk into traffic where the sword brought up? Completely. So that's an addictive behavior that I'm going to suggest could have very negative effects for some of those pedestrians.

**Rich Roll** (3:38)
The definition of addiction is the inability to control a behavior despite negative consequences. Characterized by a compulsive need to engage in the behavior irrespective of important life priorities. I mean, come on, like this is what we're doing.

**SPEAKER_4** (3:55)
Yeah, totally.

**Rich Roll** (3:56)
And I tend to have this sort of bias. I perceive things through the lens of addiction because I'm a long-time sober person. And if there is a silver lining in all of this, you know, when I first got sober in 1998, addiction was something that you should be ashamed of, that was something on the margins that we pretended wasn't there, and afflicted these poor people who ended up in the gutter, or just couldn't get it, couldn't keep the needle out of their arm or whatnot.
And now, because of the smartphones, like we're all connected to this idea of addiction in a way that, you know, 10, 15 years ago, we weren't because we all feel that pull, we're all succumbing to it, we're all victimized to it. And if there's one thing about addiction, it's that willpower isn't going to cut it. Like if you're relying on your willpower to solve this problem, you're just gonna relapse and you're gonna relapse and you're gonna get frustrated and you're just gonna dig this hole. And yet, with respect to our smartphones, it's sort of like food addiction. Like we kind of need them in order to function in society, which means we're kind of hitting it like a drug every single day.