This Is What a Real-Life Wendy Rhoades Actually Does

SPEAKER_1 (0:00)

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Joe Weisenthal (0:25)

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.

Tracy Alloway (0:31)

And I'm Tracy Alloway.

Joe Weisenthal (0:33)

Tracy, you know what was one of my favorite things that you've written?

Tracy Alloway (0:37)

There's so many, Joe.

Joe Weisenthal (0:38)

No, I mean, it's hard to choose because they're all my favorites. I really liked your review of the show Billions when it first came out.

Tracy Alloway (0:46)

Did you? I thought we were a little bit opposed on that one because I wasn't a big fan of it, but you like it, right?

Joe Weisenthal (0:53)

I do like the show, but that's irrelevant whether we agree or disagree on the show. I thought your review was very funny and made a lot of good observations. Such as? Some things you said about the dialogue and all that stuff. It was pretty spot on.

Tracy Alloway (1:13)

Well, the thing that amazed me was the, I guess the amount of male testosterone on that show and just how blatantly manly some of the trading environment is.

Joe Weisenthal (1:25)

But one of the things you did point out was some of the attempts there were to sort of have some role reversals. And I forget exactly who they were or what you pointed out, but there were some sort of like alpha type characters who are women that are sort of trying to make it a little more interesting. And I think one of the sort of most interesting characters on the show is Wendy Rhoades, the trading psychologist for Axe Capital.

Tracy Alloway (1:50)

Right, at the hedge fund. So she's basically employed by the hedge fund to help the traders in various ways.

Joe Weisenthal (1:59)

Get into top psychological form.

And one thing that's interesting, and a lot of people might not know this, is that that role kind of actually exists in real life. It wasn't just made up. There are people whose job it is to help traders get in top psychological performance.

Tracy Alloway (2:21)

Right, some of whom have been employed at large hedge funds, real life hedge funds like Bridgewater.

Joe Weisenthal (2:25)

Exactly. So, to cut right to the chase.

Tracy Alloway (2:30)

We have Wendy Rhoades on?

Joe Weisenthal (2:31)

We don't have Wendy Rhoades on. We don't have the actors who played Wendy Rhoades, but we do have someone who actually is kind of Wendy Rhoades in real life.

Tracy Alloway (2:41)

A real life trading psychologist.

Joe Weisenthal (2:42)

A real life trading psychologist. Isn't that cool?

Tracy Alloway (2:45)

That's even better.

Joe Weisenthal (2:46)

So, we're gonna talk about what this job actually entails, and hopefully learn a few things about how one day when you and I, Tracy, launch our own hedge fund, which will happen eventually, I'm sure, how we can trade with a top psychological performance.

Tracy Alloway (3:02)

Do you think there's like a Freudian or a Jungian interpretation of trading behavior?

Joe Weisenthal (3:07)

You better ask that question.

With us today, we have Dr. Brett Steenbarger. He's a Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at SUNY Upstate Medical University. And he is the author of four books on trading psychology. He has worked at various hedge funds. He advises different funds still today. He trades index futures himself. So perfect guest for this topic.

Brett Steenbarger, thank you very much for joining us.

Brett Steenbarger (3:48)

Well, thank you for having me.

Joe Weisenthal (3:50)

I always like to ask this in the beginning because I'm very nervous, but was that introduction a fair characterization that more or less you are a real life Wendy Rhoades?

Brett Steenbarger (4:00)

Well, yes and no. I think she's a little more dramatic and probably a little better looking than I am. But there are some similarities. I think one of the differences, and you were talking about this Tracy in terms of the manliness of the environment, is that it's surprising the degree to which professional trading environments have become not so manly, have become geeky.

And we see evidence of quantification throughout the investment world. And so working with traders is a little bit less dramatic than working with alpha types. There are many different types of money managers now who are active with Anhege Funds and other firms.

Tracy Alloway (4:49)

More Big Bang Theory than Wolf of Wall Street then.

Brett Steenbarger (4:53)