The trillion-dollar case against Meta

**SPEAKER_1** (0:00)
Support for Here & Now Anytime comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com.

**Thaddeus Cleveland** (0:16)
WBUR Podcast, Boston.

**Russell Coleman** (0:21)
This essentially is a product that was rolled out knowingly, knowingly, putting our kids at risk to monetize.

**Kalyani Saxena** (0:31)
The company behind Facebook and Instagram is facing a major lawsuit that could force it to pay more than a trillion dollars in fines and change how it does business.
It's Tuesday, August 18th, and this is Here & Now Anytime from NPR and WBUR Boston. I'm Kalyani Saxena. Today on the show, the government is pausing a border wall project in Texas after widespread pushback, including from President Trump's own party.

**Thaddeus Cleveland** (1:09)
A barrier or a wall is meant to separate people, to divide people, and I can tell you that regardless of where somebody's from or what political party they belong to, this wall has truly united people.

**Kalyani Saxena** (1:23)
Also, we'll get an update on Venezuela after this summer's devastating earthquake.

**Phil Gunson** (1:28)
I mean, unfortunately, sadly, we still have relatives clambering over the rubble, still six weeks on, still trying to find the bodies of their loved ones.

**Kalyani Saxena** (1:39)
But first, Meta is on trial. The company is facing a lawsuit from a coalition of states, alleging that it crafted Instagram and Facebook to hook children. The lawsuit also claims that Meta lied to the public about the risks the platforms post to kids and gathered data on children in violation of the law.
By the way, the coalition is bipartisan and seeking more than a trillion dollars in penalties and damages, plus restrictions that could change how these apps and other social media companies work. Opening arguments kicked off today, and Kentucky is one of the states suing. Rob Schmitz spoke with the state's Republican Attorney General, Russell Coleman.

**Rob Schmitz** (2:25)
So, Mr. Coleman, your lawsuit alleges that Meta knew that its products were harming children, but that Meta did nothing to stop or to prevent it. What's the evidence that you have?

**Russell Coleman** (2:37)
I am pleased to say today, Rob, that over half the states in this country, 29, let's talk about this, red states, blue states, rowing together, over 29 states are sitting in a courtroom asserting that Meta knowingly harmed our children, monetized, used technology to monetize and harm our kids. The evidence is hefty and looking forward to opening statements today, but we'll be rolling out our case within the coming days. You're going to see some damning assertions from behind the veil inside Meta itself. This is technology and I know that many, not necessarily your audience tend to zone out. They don't understand technology. That's for the kids. It boils down to this, Rob.
If I produce a widget and I know that widget harms kids, but I market that widget and I would say I market that widget and monetize it quite a bit, as something safe, then I have crossed a threshold. I have run afoul of states consumer protection statutes. That's what we're leaning on here. We're saying this essentially is a product that was rolled out knowingly putting our kids at risk to monetize. It all comes down to money at the end of the day. The longer our kids stay on, the longer their eyeballs are viewing this technology, the more they're harmed.

**Rob Schmitz** (4:03)
So I go back to my first question. What kind of evidence do you have that Meta knew about that these technologies, as you allege, were addictive to children?

**Russell Coleman** (4:14)
No, and I'm in no way dodging your question, but the reality is I'm going to let that roll out in the courtroom. We're talking about internal documents. We're talking about witnesses, that experts, that can demonstrate this level of knowledge. And so it is that you have half the states in this nation asserting that this was rolled out knowingly. So stay tuned.

**Rob Schmitz** (4:37)
OK. So Meta says Instagram and Facebook already have measures to protect minors, and it points to teen accounts with built-in safety settings. I'm guessing you're going to say that these measures are not sufficient. Explain that to me.

**Russell Coleman** (4:49)
So this is a season where so many of our kids go back to school and you look at what their summers look like these past few months versus what our summers look like as kids. We had to twist arms, our parents did, to get us back in the house back some years ago. You have a whole generation that has to be unglued from the screens where there is no limitation as to the doom's growing, the length of time. These are algorithms that themselves are targeting our kids. Algorithms. So no, there are not sufficient protections. There have not been sufficient protections, given the nature of the harm. I'll go back to the widget example. We could, I could assert that there were certain limitations on the use of that device. But the reality is these technologies, not only, and stay tuned in terms of other defendants, not only Meta, there's a reason that states like the Commonwealth of Kentucky are going after the addiction machine that is TikTok or the platform that is the playground of choice for predators, which is Roblox or Character AI, which is a, has a narcissistic algorithm that harms kids.