The Secret to Better Conversations Isn't Talking | A Bit of Optimism: Feelings at Work | PART 2

**Alex Simon** (0:00)
The thing that I try to remind myself of, of my version of listening with curiosity, is am I listening to understand?

**Simon Sinek** (0:05)
Same, same.

**Alex Simon** (0:05)
Same thing, of like, am I listening so that I can find my points to prove why they're wrong and why I'm right? Or am I listening because I genuinely want to understand where are they coming from?

**Simon Sinek** (0:12)
Okay, let's say that slower, and let's say that, because that is a really important point, which is that, am I listening to understand so that I can make my points and be right and make them wrong, or prove that they're wrong? Or I'm listening to understand, what was the second part?

**Alex Simon** (0:26)
Or am I listening to understand to genuinely hear where they're coming from?

**Simon Sinek** (0:30)
And I think that's a very important distinction, which is not listening to understand the argument, you're listening to understand the person. Have you ever felt frustrated, angry, dismissed, or misunderstood by someone you're talking to? You're trying to tell them how you feel, or you're trying to give them some feedback or resolve some tension or conflict, and they keep interrupting you or acting like they understand when they don't. Worse, when you point out that they aren't listening to you, they parrot what you said back to you as proof that they are.
What you're experiencing is talking to someone who doesn't know how to listen. Here's the bad news. That's most of us. It's true. Most of us are bad listeners. But here's the irony. For a conversation to go better, it actually only requires a minimum of one person in that conversation to know how to listen, that magical art of making the other person feel heard.
Instead of being angry that they don't know how to listen, if we were better listeners ourselves, it would help the conversation go better. And if both had the skill, oh, well that's just joy of joys. But most of us don't bother to spend the time to learn or practice listening because most of us think we're already good at it.
Instead of taking a summer hiatus, we're presenting a special five episode series of A Bit of Optimism to go deep on human skills, the things that help us connect, collaborate and succeed in any human relationship. That's why I invited Alex Simon to join me, founder of LifeShop, where she teaches emotional intelligence. And over these five episodes, we will tackle some of the messier interactions, like having hard conversations, people pleasing, giving feedback and taking accountability, and this one, listening.
Here's what you can expect from this episode. First, we'll discuss what people ask for and what they want are very often not the same thing. At work, for example, people may say that they want to raise or to reduce their workload or want to change their team. But often, when they get those things, it doesn't actually fix how they feel about their jobs. That's because every so often we think our dissatisfaction at work is because of those things, when it's actually something deeper. If you know how to listen for that deeper thing, it helps us resolve tensions and find more joy at work, both for others and for ourselves. Next, Alex will teach her four second rule, a very simple technique to help us become better listeners immediately. It's so simple, you can actually use it as soon as you're done listening to this podcast. Finally, we discuss how to listen and how listening can often go haywire when there are power dynamics involved. Settle in. This episode is one of the steps you can take to be a better listener, and I promise everyone in your life will love you for it. And if you enjoy this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism.
When you say to somebody, are you a good listener? Most people are like, yeah, I'm a good listener.

**Alex Simon** (3:36)
Really, I think most people know.

**Simon Sinek** (3:38)
You think most people know?

**Alex Simon** (3:38)
They're surely shitty listeners.

**Simon Sinek** (3:39)
I think men think they're good listeners, because they confuse listening and hearing.

**Alex Simon** (3:43)
Yeah.

**Simon Sinek** (3:44)
Like, you're not listening to me, and they say back everything they heard as proof of listening, even though I was watching TV while you were telling me.

**Alex Simon** (3:51)
I think most people know on a deep level that they're not that good listeners, but I think that most people are trying their best, and I think we're not taught how to listen.

**Simon Sinek** (3:58)
So let's start at a high level and work our way down.