The Last Humans: Alexander Wendt on UFOs, Global Security and the Threat to State Sovereignty

Andrew Keen (0:00)

Hello, my name is Andrew Keen. Welcome to Keen On America, the daily interview show about the United States.

Hello, everybody. It is Thursday, October the 15th, 2026 Last month, we had the New York City-based cultural critic, Adam Hirsch, on the show. He has, or he had a new book out, We Want To Believe, How Aliens Went Mainstream, and Why It Matters. It's been an interesting conversation.

It's easy, of course, to dismiss and make fun of the increasing belief or interest in UFOs. But for Kirsch, who, as I said, has spent a life writing books on one kind of cultural criticism or another, he thinks there's something more substantial about our increasing obsession with UFOs. It's become a kind of new religion in his mind. And this interest in UFOs is also the subject of a new book by a major academic, a theorist in international relations, Alexander Wendt. He teaches at Ohio State University. He's a very innovative thinker when it comes to international relations. And there's a new book out, The Last Humans, UFOs, Global Security, and the Threat to State Sovereignty. Alex is joining us from his home office in Columbus, Ohio. The book is out today. Alex, congratulations on the new book. Do you share Adam Hirsch's argument or sense that behind all this obsession with UFOs are significant cultural, social, economic, geopolitical developments?

Alexander Wendt (2:17)

Well, thank you for having me on the show first. I'm delighted to be here. Well, I haven't read Hirsch or haven't seen Hirsch's post or whatever, so I don't know.

Andrew Keen (2:29)

Sorry, I may have misrepresented him. It's Kirsch, Adam Kirsch. Okay.

Alexander Wendt (2:34)

I haven't read or seen anything of his, so it's hard for me to comment directly. I'm skeptical that this whole issue is being driven by religious or other cultural motives. I think that there's a scientific imperative and there's a defense or military imperative that's going on. Of course, I'm a political scientist, and so I'd be biased toward those kinds of factors anyway.

But it's a matter of debate, obviously.

Andrew Keen (3:04)

What's your sense then about these UFOs? There's more and more interests in the Pentagon back in June 2021 I know you write about this in your book. That was a white paper by the Director of National Intelligence on Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon, the Pentagon of putting out more and more UFO videos. Do you think, we'll come to your theory in a minute, Alex. But is there something in it?

Is your sense that there may be UFOs up there, little green men planning to invade the Earth?

Alexander Wendt (3:41)

Well, I would distinguish UFOs from ETs. UFOs, the Defense Department tells us, are real. And I'm inclined to believe them since they, for 75 years, denied they were real and suddenly changed their mind. So that seems pretty significant.

And so I guess, what was your question again, the rest of it?

Andrew Keen (4:04)

Well, maybe I collapsed. You said there's a difference between believing in UFOs and little green men. I mean, presumably someone's driving or riding on or doing something with these UFOs. They're not full of humans, are they?

Alexander Wendt (4:18)

No, I don't think so. I mean, I agree that somebody probably is driving them. But I think it's important just from an analytical perspective to separate the UAP part of it, which is just the physical object, which can be documented on radar and everything else, from the hypothesis that aliens are flying these things. Now, I don't know what other hypothesis would be even on the table, but I think it's important to keep them separate. I try to do that in the book as well.

Andrew Keen (4:46)

Although maybe they're self-driving or self-flying UFOs. We got lots of those on the streets of San Francisco. Do you have self-driving vehicles yet in Columbus, Ohio, Alex?

Alexander Wendt (4:58)

I don't think so. I haven't seen any anyway.

Andrew Keen (5:01)

I'm sure all those Ohioans, when they will see them, will probably assume that they're being driven by little green men. Some people seem to think that already in San Francisco. So coming to your book, The Last Humans, UFOs, Global Security, and the Threat to State Sovereignty, you're a theorist of international politics, of international relations.

Your book, Social Theory of International Politics, has had a great influence. What's your interest in, our interest in UFOs? How do you think, how might it impact on international relations, on what we take for granted about states?

Alexander Wendt (5:45)

Well, in the book, I don't try to forecast. I try to just identify different possibilities, and just so that people have a sense of the range of options. So my own sense, I mean, my personal sense is, well, wait, what was your question again now? I'm losing track of the question again.