The Iran-War: An Autopsy - with Jonah Goldberg and John Podhoretz

**Dan Senor** (0:02)
Over the past couple of years, Call Me Back has grown into something much bigger than we ever expected. A place for clarity, context, and honest conversations, at a time when those things can seem hard to find. That's what Ark Media is all about, building a truly independent voice, which means no one shaping what we say or how we say it.
To help support our rapidly expanding operations, we created Inside Call Me Back, our members-only feed. If Call Me Back has been meaningful to you, and you want to be part of what we're building, I hope you'll join us. You can subscribe at arkmedia.org or through the link in the show notes. And to our insiders, thank you.

**Jonah Goldberg** (0:50)
You are listening to an Ark Media podcast.

**John Podhoretz** (0:55)
When Trump said, I am going to destroy your civilization, Tuesday evening, he said, I am now declaring a ceasefire. I think it was at that moment that it was clear that the heart had gone out of whatever the hell was going on, that he had decided that he was no longer having fun and that he wanted to get himself out of it.

**Jonah Goldberg** (1:18)
When you take out the supreme leader and 40 odd members of the leadership of the country, they are going to interpret that as an attempt at a regime change.
That completely blew up the escalatory ladder thesis on all this. Like if they had gone in and said to the regime quietly, look, you guys are safe, but we're gonna take out your Navy, we're gonna take out your Air Force, don't do anything with the Strait of Hormuz, or we're gonna take out your regime, that would have been the right sequencing of threats, but instead to start at 11 and then try to go backwards creates this problem where the Iranians were like, we're a Persian Gulf Alamo now, we got nothing to lose, let's start attacking our neighbors, let's start mining and droning the Strait of Hormuz because it's this or death. And so I personally think it's possible that the United States could have won this whole thing in real terms, gotten regime change and all that, but it would have required a level of stick-to-itiveness that it would be folly to expect from this administration.

**Dan Senor** (2:25)
8 a.m. on Sunday, June 28th, here in New York City. It's 3 p.m. on Sunday, June 28th, in Israel.
As many of our listeners know, I have not been hysterical about where the US and Israel are positioned today vis-a-vis Iran. Do I have concerns? Of course, but I'm not hysterical. Some of you have been reaching out to me and the Ark Media team to express your alarm at my analysis thus far. So today I invited on the podcast two thinkers who have been following every twist and turn on the Iran-War and have actually landed in a pretty dispirited place. They are among the most independent and thoughtful writers and analysts on the right. They always have been, but as it relates to today's conversation, especially so during the Trump years, we wanted to conduct an autopsy of the Iran-War, at least as it stands, right now. Jonah Goldberg is editor-in-chief of The Dispatch and the host of The Remnant Podcast, and a syndicated columnist for the LA Times. He's also a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and an author of a number of books, including Suicide of the West. John Podhoretz is editor-in-chief of Commentary Magazine, and one of the hosts of the Commentary Podcast, and author of the book Hell of a Ride. Just one programming note, this conversation will be released in two parts. Part one, The Autopsy of the Iran War, will be released on Monday. And part two, which will be focused on US politics and trends in US politics, especially given events of the past week, and in the lead up to the 250th anniversary of the founding of the United States, which is something we will focus on. Part two will be released on Thursday, as folks are heading into the July 4th weekend. We'll be back with the conversation after this quick break.
This episode is sponsored by the Israel on Campus Coalition.
Picture a Jewish sophomore walking into a lecture hall. There's a banner on the wall calling Israel an apartheid state. Her classmates look away. She has about 10 seconds to decide, stay quiet or speak up. On campuses across the country, students are making that choice every single day. According to some studies, more than half of college students now say anti-Semitism on their campus is getting worse, and the students standing up to it are often outnumbered and alone. That's where the Israel on Campus Coalition steps in. ICC is a nerve center of the pro-Israel movement on campus. It unites more than 40 organizations, trains student leaders on over 150 campuses, and helps develop the strategy, the backup and the funding to win. Jewish and non-Jewish, left and right, stand up for Israel together. This is where the next generation can be won or lost, and your gift goes straight to the students in the fight. Make a tax-deductible donation at israelcc.org.