The Implications of AI on the Global Balance of Power with Alex Wang, Andrew Ng, Jack Clark and Cory Booker

**Erik Torenberg** (0:00)
Hey everyone, every week, I sit down with investor and writer, Byrne Hobart on Turpentine's show, The Riff.
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**Nathan Labenz** (0:23)
Hello, and welcome to the Cognitive Revolution, where we interview visionary researchers, entrepreneurs, and builders working on the frontier of artificial intelligence. Each week, we'll explore their revolutionary ideas, and together, we'll build a picture of how AI technology will transform work, life, and society in the coming years. I'm Nathan Labenz, joined by my co-host, Erik Torenberg. Hello, and welcome back to the Cognitive Revolution. Today, we are sharing a thought-provoking panel discussion from the recent Hill & Valley Forum, a private bipartisan community of lawmakers and innovators convened to consider how the United States can best use technology to address its national security challenges.
Moderated by Senator Cory Booker, who it's worth noting, I supported in the 2020 Democratic presidential primary, the panel featured three AI A-listers. Alex Wang, the visionary wonder kid, founder and CEO of Scale AI. Jack Clark, co-founder of Anthropic, a company for which my fandom is well-documented, and Andrew Ng, managing partner of the AI Fund and co-author of more than 200 AI research papers over the years.
As you hear, there was a lot of agreement amongst the panelists, including on the key point that when it comes to AI, China is already producing lots of outstanding research advances, will not easily be held back by policies such as chip or intellectual property export controls, and generally should not be underestimated. I share this outlook, and I also strongly agree that the US government should embrace the day-to-day utility that AI can provide, whether that comes in the form of AI doctors, streamlined government processes, or Jetsons-style self-driving cars and domestic servant robots. And yet, candidly, I will say that there was something about this conversation that left me a bit uneasy. Too much of the analysis, in my view, is framed through the lens of competition between the United States and other nations. While I certainly would not want to live in Xi's China, and I deeply appreciate the fact that I can freely disagree with a sitting US senator, I think we should make our AI decisions based on the practical value that AI systems can provide and the most grounded risk analyses we can manage. And I really worry that we will end up making bad decisions if we allow ourselves to make a habit of us versus them thinking. Personally, I would love to see the United States lead the world not by striving to maintain a technology edge through any means necessary, but by working to transcend the paradigm of nation-state rivalry and seeking collaboration with all nations in pursuit of a positive AI strategy.
You may say that I'm a dreamer for taking this position, and I certainly wouldn't want the United States to be too naive when it comes to China's capabilities or intentions, but technology revolutions do represent a rare opportunity to rethink how we live, work, play, and relate to one another. And given the overwhelming momentum toward continued rivalry and escalation of tensions with China, I think it's important that at least some of us step back and try to imagine a more positive dynamic. After all, the true others in the AI era are not the Chinese, but the AIs themselves.
If you're finding value in the show, please do take a second to share it with friends, and as always, we value your feedback. You can reach us via our website, cognitiverevolution.ai, or by DMing me on your favorite social network. Now, here's Senator Booker, Andrew Ng, Alex Wang, and Jack Clark for a discussion on the future of American leadership in artificial intelligence.

**Cory Booker** (3:57)
I think that you all know the folks that are up here. I'm gonna introduce them in a second. But for this purposes of this panel, AI stands for Awesome Individuals with Amazing Insight. And this is best I got, it's the best I got.
But it truly is an excellent panel that I'm really excited about. And we have Jack Clark, the co-founder of Anthropic. Please, more than a smattering of applause.
Thank you very much.

**Jack Clark** (4:20)
That's a moment of smile.

**Cory Booker** (4:21)
Alex Wang, the CEO of Scale AI.
Don't applaud him, he's appallingly young for crying out loud. And has a great head of hair too that makes me very jealous. And then of course, Andrew Ng, who I love because he's from my alma mater, the managing general partner of the AI fund.