'The Hardest Thing I've Ever Done': Noah Waisberg on Why Selling a Business Hurts, and How Zuva Aims to Fix It

Bob Ambrogi (0:02)

Welcome to LawNext. Five years ago, Noah Waisberg sold Kira Systems, the pioneering AI contract analysis company that he co-founded in 2011, to Litera. Even though the deal itself went well, the experience of going through the sale was hard, Noah now says, and inspired him to turn that experience into his next business. As part of that sale, he kept a copy of the underlying Kira technology, and about 30 of the company's roughly 180 employees, and he used them to launch his current business Zuva. Zuva started as an API only company, but it has since turned its focus to the sell side of M&A. After interviewing some 200 deal makers about the most painful parts of selling a business, Zuva built software to help sellers manage the flood of bitter questions. It also launched a tech enabled diligence service that pairs Kira's AI with experienced former Big Law associates. Zuva says the service delivers work comparable to that of Big Law at a fraction of the cost. Noah was last on LawNext in 2021 around the time his book AI for Lawyers came out. In today's episode, he explains Zuva's new direction and what the recent expiration of his post-sale restrictions means for the company. We recorded this conversation on the day Harvey announced its latest mega-funding round, so we also talk about the prospects for Harvey and Legora against the Frontier Labs, and why Noah told me at Ilticon that we've hit peak legal tech. He also covers the limitations of today's AI that he thinks the market underestimates, and why the billable hour remains the biggest obstacle to efficiency in law. This is Bob Ambrogi, listening to LawNext, a podcast that features the innovators and entrepreneurs who are driving what's next in law. And before we get to any of that, please take a moment to hear from the sponsors who so generously support LawNext.

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Now, let's get to today's conversation.

Noah, welcome back to LawNext.

Noah Waisberg (3:21)

Good to see you, Bob. Thanks for having me again.

Bob Ambrogi (3:24)

I say welcome back because you were on the show in 2021

On the occasion of right around the time, I think it was right around the time, your book came out, which I have people watching on video can see. I've got Noah's books right here in front of me. I was looking, I'm kind of disappointed. I got a little autograph in the book. I don't know how that happened. You've got a few of them up there too, I'm sure.

Noah Waisberg (3:44)

I got boxes sitting at my feet. Yes.

Bob Ambrogi (3:48)

But it's kind of funny because you literally wrote the book, AI for Lawyers, and lots changed probably since then. Have you ever thought about redoing it or maybe not? Do you think a lot's changed? Does it need an update?

Noah Waisberg (4:05)

A lot has changed and a lot hasn't changed. The central thrust of AI Lawyers, the book, is that an hourly billing lawyer can make more money being more efficient. That is the core intellectual idea of the book.

It's possible that I am one of the best people in the world at explaining that concept even though I haven't really done it very much for the last five years since Zoey and Kira.

But, that is the core argument of AI for Lawyers.

I don't think that's changed and I think a lot more people are spending a lot more time looking at that right now. There are some case studies in the book, including about some terrific people talking about specific areas where AI is being applied in law. We've got a section by Michael Mills on expert systems. We have Jake and Pablo and Laura, I think, write a section on AI and legal research. There's a Jack Newton subsection, there's Jason Barnwell subsection. Not all of those, some of the Blue Jay people do a section. Not all of those subsections, I think, are as au courant. If you were going to write a state of the world in AI today, I think it would be different. But to me, when we were writing the book, we were intentionally, we knew that AI was going to change. So there's a part one that talks about the intellectual case around AI for Lawyers. I think that if anything is more powerful today than it once was. There's a second section of the book about case studies. I think if we were to update it, and we may, that is something that would have to change. Then there's some other sections of it that I think are also more lasting about how AI is played out. So I think there's things we'd have to change, but actually I don't think it's that much that we would, and it's something that we've talked about. I've just had my hands a lot more full than I've expected.