The Best and Worst Thing About America: Konstanty Gebert on the Interlibrary Loan and Yalta

**Andrew Keen** (0:00)
Hello, my name is Andrew Keen. Welcome to Keen On America, the daily interview show about the United States.
Hello, everyone. We are on the road today. We're in Warsaw, the capital of Poland.
I think it would be fair to call Warsaw and Poland one of the friendliest places for America. There's a huge statue of Ronald Reagan opposite the American Embassy, and there's a wonderful statue of an American war hero, also has a statue outside the White House in Lafayette Park, in Washington, DC., Tadeusz Kosztukow. I mispronounced his name, of course. But things are changing, it would seem. After many conversations I've had, some broadcast, some not on the show, people are becoming more and more ambivalent, questioning and sometimes deeply hostile or critical about the United States. My guest today, I think would be fair to say, neither loves nor hates America. He's hopeful, but also critical. He is a very prominent figure in Polish politics and culture, very prominent Jewish activist, very much involved in solidarity and the democratic movement. Konstanty Gebert, welcome to Keen On America.

**Konstanty Gebert** (1:47)
Thank you for having me.

**Andrew Keen** (1:49)
So, Konstanty, I did my best not to pigeonhole you when it comes to America. Perhaps you could put your view of the country in your own words, either historically or in current terms.

**Konstanty Gebert** (2:05)
There's a lot I very much like in America. The inter-library loan system being probably tops. I think it's an extraordinary contribution to civilization.
I've got tons of friends I've taught there. And politically, the US has been a force rather for the good. In the balance, its impact on world affairs until recently has been overall positive. This changed drastically in under the first Trump presidency, and the downward trend is continuing under the second Trump presidency, which also made Poles who are notorious for being pro-American in Europe. French President Jacques Chirac called us America's Trojan horse in Europe.
This made Poles reassess their attitudes towards the United States, although not necessarily towards America. The United States is a state, a political structure, a government policy, a president, an executive, and we're not happy with the policies of the United States. But America still attracts a great emotional pull for Poland for a number of reasons.
The over 10 million Polish Americans, every other family has some kind of relative in the States. The history of American-Polish relations, America is the only ally who has not betrayed us yet.
But also, the idea of, which is a mythical idea, but myths do shape perceptions of the land of possibilities, the Golden Medina, the Jews would say, rags to riches, everybody would say, at least the idea that this is possible. And then of course, there is the entire production of popular culture. The American popular culture is immensely popular in Poland too. So it's a very mixed bag. And the policies of the Trump administration are only part of that mix. But that's what is becoming more and more prominent, especially now as Poland is watching with battered breath. Ukraine's struggle for its independence, and we're very clear that Ukraine is fighting for us. We in Poland have a long history of fighting for other people. This time, somebody else is fighting for our freedom too. And the fact that Ukraine cannot rely on wholehearted US support is immensely worrying because it also means neither can we. And this is a neighborhood in which we need allies.

**Andrew Keen** (5:32)
Konstanty, before we get to Ukraine or even Reagan, we might remind ourselves of the role of Woodrow Wilson, not an uncontroversial figure in the creation of modern Poland. I'm sure there are streets in Warsaw and other cities in Poland named after Wilson.

**Konstanty Gebert** (5:51)
Well, there's a big Wilson Square in Northern Warsaw. Actually, it's very funny because it was named Wilson Square when it was designed in the 20s. And then after the Communist takeover, it was called Paris Commune Square. And nobody would use that name.
If you'd ask somebody on the street, so how did they get to Paris Commune Square? Never heard about it. Everybody said Wilson Square.

**Andrew Keen** (6:18)
Yeah, I think Wilson sounds a lot better than the Paris Commune.

**Konstanty Gebert** (6:22)
But wait, wait, wait. After the fall of Communism, it was renamed Wilson Square. And that's when people started saying, oh, that's Paris Commune Square.
So today, you can safely use both names.

**Andrew Keen** (6:36)
Well, that's a very Polish way, perhaps, of challenging orthodoxy. But Konstanty, you might just remind our viewers and listeners, of course, most of whom are not intimately acquainted with modern Polish history, of Wilson's importance in terms of the creation of a modern Poland.