Sir Richard Dearlove Talks Intel Concerns

**David Gura** (0:02)
Bloomberg Audio Studios.

**Richard Dearlove** (0:04)
The French newspaper L'Express recently asked Europe's top spies which country has the best clandestine agency.

**David Gura** (0:10)
The winner? MI6.

**Richard Dearlove** (0:12)
And the runner-up is France's DGSE. The Netherlands, Ukraine and Germany round out the rest of the top five.

**David Gura** (0:17)
That's right, but how has a spy game changed in the modern era? Is AI making the job harder or easier, and where does the CIA factor in? We sat down with Sir Richard Dearlove, the former head of British Intelligence and cohost the One Decision Podcast.

**Richard Dearlove** (0:31)
I mean, if you look at the European intelligence agencies, for largely historical reasons, there's no question that the United Kingdom in MI6 has, let's say, the agency with the broadest international remit, with representation in many countries, and with a depth and length of experience which is unmatched by any other European service. I mean, bearing in mind MI6 is a historical creation that goes back to 1909, and there's no other European service that has a history with that depth. So I'm not surprised. Of course, it's the best European service. I would say that, wouldn't I?

**David Gura** (1:18)
Why is human intelligence so important? What makes it so valuable?

**Richard Dearlove** (1:26)
Because I think you can only really find out the sort of detail of what you're searching for by talking to the people who've actually got access to the decision making process in the foreign government. So let's say the current war in Iran. I would imagine that, let's say, Mossad has human sources amongst the Iranian leadership. You therefore get a much more integrated and clear picture of how the leadership of the IRGC is thinking in the conduct of the war. I mean, intercept can be valuable and really important, but you might only have a partial picture.
And data analysis doesn't give you that human dimension.

**David Gura** (2:23)
Is it getting harder to recruit and train people to be successful operations agents? I mean, do people still want to be spies? It seems like in an era where everybody wants to tell everybody everything, is it hard to say to a smart young person, we want you to do a lot of risky, amazing stuff, but you can't put it on Instagram?

**Richard Dearlove** (2:43)
Yeah, I guess that's a good point, but I think if the career is regarded as prestigious, if the career offered is good.
I mean, I can honestly say I was in MI6 for 38 years, and despite the discipline, the restraints, the secrecy, I probably never had a boring day at work. How many people can say that in a 38-year career? So there is an attraction. I think it requires a special type of character that's suited to the work. Of course, not everybody is, and the selection is pretty fierce. But certainly in the UK, it's maintained its reputation as an attractive career. In some other countries where the intelligence community has been more politicized, I wouldn't say that's necessarily true.

**David Gura** (3:39)
Well, speaking of, I'm wondering what your assessment is right now of cooperation between MI6 and the CIA. I know when you were head of the agency, you spent a lot of time in Washington. You spent a lot of time both in Langley and in the White House. But is that cooperation as good as it used to be? And does the CIA have a retention and recruiting problem at the moment?

**Richard Dearlove** (4:03)
Well, the last of your questions first, I'm told that the CIA does have a recruitment problem at the moment. But that's maybe because there has recently, I think rather shockingly, been a purge of senior officers on the basis of the degree of loyalty to mega-republicanism. I mean, it shouldn't be a party issue, but I think it's become so. And I think the previous or departing DDO, that's the head of the operational bit of CIA, I think it was called Tom Silverstone, who should have finished his career in London, has been denied the job and has retired because it wasn't absolutely clear that he was a sort of uncritical mega-republican supporter. I find that very alarming and not good for the service at all. I mean, the tradition in MI6 is that you work, whatever party is in government, that you don't express a political opinion.
And okay, you'll deny that opportunity publicly to advertise your own views. But that's part of the discipline of being a national intelligence officer. And I think the CIA at the moment certainly seems to have a problem. I guess that will pass because it has a tradition of producing and training very capable field officers.