Q&A: Europe’s border crisis & AOC for President?

**James Rubin** (0:02)
This is a Global Production.

**Christiane Amanpour** (0:04)
It freaked Europe out.
It really freaked Europe out. It was almost like nightmares of what had happened in 2015 And it's true, they could do it, they did let them in, but it led to a massive political backlash, which just a year later led to Brexit, led to Trump, led to the current manifestation of the fear and loathing over immigration.

**James Rubin** (0:26)
I continue to say this, I continue to believe this. Our country has thrived because of immigration. It's what makes America a unique place.

**Christiane Amanpour** (0:35)
Europe is graying faster and worse than the United States is, so there's a big urgency in Europe.

**James Rubin** (0:41)
Trump could do this. Trump could fix the legal immigration problem.

**Christiane Amanpour** (0:50)
Hi everyone, this is the Q&A episode of The Ex Files with me, Christiane Amanpour, here in London.

**James Rubin** (0:57)
And Jamie Rubin here in New York.

**Christiane Amanpour** (0:59)
So you know what, I am actually going to take the first question because it's unfolding sort of around us and it's been a big deal over the last few weeks. So Daryl on Instagram says, what have you made of the way Europe has responded to the scenes in Sweta from a few weeks ago? I am sure I'm pronouncing it wrong. Have leaders responded strongly enough to what happened or do you worry the hard right will use it to exploit the issue of mass immigration again? So before we answer it, let's just say what it was.
A couple of weeks ago, tens of thousands of Moroccans and other immigrants and people who wanted to get into Spain and Europe actually breached the frontier of a Spanish territory on the North African coast of Morocco. And then they had to be immediately sent back. The Spanish Prime Minister mobilized police and all sorts of others. And most of them had to go back. But the answer to the question is that it freaked Europe out. It really freaked Europe out. It was almost like nightmares of what had happened in 2015 when Syrian refugees, you remember, made the long march from their, I was going to say internment camps, but their real hardship inside Syria during the war and various places that they had been stopped en route to trying to come to Europe. And they came along that trail which took them to Hungary and then tried to get into Germany and in fact many of them did. Hungary put up a fortress but many, about a million or so got into Germany and then Chancellor Angela Merkel said, we can do this, we can let them in. And it's true, they could do it, they did let them in but it led to a massive political backlash which just a year later led to Brexit, led to Trump, led to the current manifestation of the fear and loathing over immigration. And this time with the sweater invasion, although that's a bad word to use, clearly it has political context and is used by, you know, generally the far right and the opponents of immigration, all the European leaders, many of them really got on the case of the Spanish Prime Minister to get this situation under control.
And it's a very tricky one. And it has the possibility of empowering, for instance, in Spain, the far right, the opposition, and elsewhere, you know, in Germany, in France, where there's real fears that the far right may make inroads. Jamie, what do you think about all of this? It's raised the ugly head of immigration, although what we do need is managed immigration to fill the demographic hole that's happening in the United States and very pronounced here in Europe.

**James Rubin** (3:43)
Right, this is the most sensitive, probably, issue of our time in terms of, other than artificial intelligence, where everyone knows that the issue has to be handled responsibly.
But there's an incredible fear and loathing that is created by one side of the debate, which is to create the perception that there's going to be a horde, an invasion, a swarm, a changing of our culture.
I think it's a hard subject.
The substance of it is very, very difficult to get legal immigration right and to get illegal immigration right. Isn't easy and it's going to be a problem that governments are going to deal with for a long, long time. You're absolutely right. The Syrian refugee crisis, I was there in London. We were living together then. It really was used by the supporters of Brexit and there was a daily headlines every single day of refugees coming into Greece or coming into Italy, and it really looked like an invasion. And so it is an area where irresponsible behavior can exaggerate the problem. On the other hand, there has to be a way to distinguish between those refugees that have a genuine fear of being killed and should be taken in for humanitarian reasons and those who are just trying to improve their lot. And the world is not a fair place. And it is true that if you're born in some countries, you have a less good chance of thriving than if you're born in other countries. But that's not fixable by opening borders. And I think for too long, the idea of easy immigration was pushed. And for example, in my country, people were trying to, for a while there in the Democratic Party, suggest that the border in the south shouldn't be a criminal offense if you go across the border. That was obviously way too far and caused a big backlash. So what does all this mean? It means that immigration is the hardest issue that I can think of right now. It means that legal immigration is absolutely essential for America to continue to thrive. I like to say this, I continue to say this, I continue to believe this. Our country has thrived because of immigration. It's what makes America a unique place where people come from all over the world to come here and become Americans based on principles rather than the color of their skin or where they were born or their ethnicity or religion or anything else.