Owen Jones vs. TRIGGERnometry

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Konstantin Kisin (0:32)

I think the real disagreement here is I don't think you understand how the market works.

So how could those things that happened in 1984 and 1985 cause a recession in 1980? It says these policies helped plunge Britain and the US into dire recession in the early 80s. But the policies happened five years later.

Owen Jones (0:49)

No, that's not true. Deregulation begins immediately.

People feel they're competing for scarce resources. Immigration has actually, without immigration, our economies would be poorer.

Konstantin Kisin (1:01)

My policy is that we are much more selective about who we let into this country. Do you understand the word selective?

Owen Jones (1:06)

No, I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying, but it doesn't... I'm saying, what does that mean in practice?

Konstantin Kisin (1:11)

I'm trying to tell you.

Owen Jones (1:12)

Tell me! It's funny talking about economic insanity and problematic... It's one of the most insane economic ideas I've ever heard.

Konstantin Kisin (1:18)

Well, the market. Are you interviewing me here?

Owen Jones (1:21)

Well, it feels like I am now, yeah.

Konstantin Kisin (1:22)

Well, maybe you should stop.

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Francis Foster (1:41)

Go to shop.triggerpod.co.uk That's shop.triggerpod.co.uk and become part of the show.

Konstantin Kisin (1:51)

Owen Jones, welcome to TRIGGERnometry.

Owen Jones (1:53)

Here I am in the heart of the beast.

Konstantin Kisin (1:54)

Beautiful studio.

Owen Jones (1:55)

It's a really beautiful studio by the way.

Konstantin Kisin (1:57)

Of course.

Francis Foster (1:57)

Well, thank you very much. Still, we open with a compliment. Who says people who disagree can't disagree.

Owen Jones (2:04)

Exactly. Let's keep it up.

Konstantin Kisin (2:06)

I don't agree.

Owen Jones (2:07)

Looking very dapper.

Konstantin Kisin (2:08)

Thank you.

Owen Jones (2:09)

You also not as dapper, but still presentable.

Francis Foster (2:12)

I'm in a brown shirt, so keep him with the character.

Konstantin Kisin (2:15)

He said it.

Francis Foster (2:17)

But anyway, it's so good to have you on. Thank you very much for coming on, and really enjoyed the book. And one of the things you talk about a lot is neoliberalism. And I think it's really important before we delve into all the issues, could you just define what you mean by it? Because it's a word we hear all the time. I don't think a lot of people know what it means.

Owen Jones (2:35)

No. Yeah, it's totally fair enough. I think neoliberalism is its privatization of state assets, it's slashing taxes on those with assets and with wealth. It's curtailing organized labor, it's promoting marketization. It's in practice, it's financialization. It's about rewarding assets and finance over the productive economy. It means an economy which is geared towards finance. I mean, 80 percent of finance is recirculated through finance, insurance and real estate rather than going to the productive economy. So it's the financialization of everything. Everything becomes a financial product. Companies don't invest anymore in the way they should in their own company. It goes to share buybacks, it goes to share dividends. So yeah, I think it's marketization, privatization, and it's financialization.

That's the kind of gist, I guess.

Francis Foster (3:33)

Right. Okay. And so what are your issues with that? Let's just pick this apart.

Owen Jones (3:37)

So what it's done in practice is less growth, which is less equitably distributed. So the average growth in the 1970s was almost the same as it was in the 1980s. 1970s is portrayed as Britain is in a catastrophic meltdown. It's a sick man of Europe.

It's stagflation, all the rest of it. And no question Britain and the West were in a bit of a mess in the 70s, mainly because of the oil shock of the early 70s.

A bit of deja vu because we're kind of going through that again, because of a conflict in the Middle East. 1973 onwards, you get the Arab states imposed an oil embargo. And later, as well, with the Iranian Revolution, you get another oil shock. So you get massive inflation, but it's also caused by the Vietnam War because the Americans didn't print money, or sorry, they did print money. They didn't raise taxes to pay for the war, they printed money. So you get this inflationary wage. The international financial framework, Bretton Woods collapses under Richard Nixon. So the West is in this mess in the 1970s because of that, not, but Thatcher and Reagan spawn a story. This is because of the states, it's because of the unions. But what you get in the 80s is the same amount of growth and average in Britain. In the 90s, the growth is less.