Needle Drops: How pop songs first started showing up in movies

SPEAKER_1 (0:00)

You're listening to Twenty Thousand Hertz.

Dallas Taylor (0:04)

I'm Dallas Taylor. Recently, our supervising producer Casey set up a recording with me and De facto Sounds producer Grace.

SPEAKER_1 (0:18)

All right, so should we get into it?

Dallas Taylor (0:20)

Let's get into it. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_1 (0:21)

So today, we are going on a journey through the world of needle drops, which is the term for when a movie or TV show or even a commercial uses a popular song rather than original score music or production music, aka library music.

So you might remember the montage in Goodfellas. It's after the big heist when Robert De Niro's character is taking out all of his accomplices. And it's set to Layla by Derek and the Dominos. So that is a needle drop.

SPEAKER_6 (0:51)

Jimmy was cutting every link between himself and the robbery, but it had nothing to do with me.

SPEAKER_1 (1:00)

Or, in Fight Club, at the end, when the financial buildings start exploding and Where Is My Mind by the Pixies starts playing, that is also a needle drop.

SPEAKER_5 (1:08)

Ooh, I love it.

SPEAKER_7 (1:10)

Marla, look at me.

SPEAKER_6 (1:11)

I'm really okay.

SPEAKER_5 (1:14)

Trust me, everything's going to be fine.

SPEAKER_1 (1:26)

So, A Needle Drop is about crafting the perfect pairing of a song and a scene, and making that pairing successful involves a lot of craft and artistry but also just a lot of practical work in negotiating, and that's what we're going to dive into today.

SPEAKER_5 (1:43)

All right. Woohoo.

SPEAKER_1 (1:44)

But before we get to the history, I want to define a couple of terms which are diegetic and non-diegetic music. Are either of you familiar with those terms?

Dallas Taylor (1:53)

Yeah, we need better terms for this. It's also sound design. This is something where people say diegetic and non-diegetic, and it's just too academic of a term, Grace, and you're a resident linguist. Can we make a better term than diegetic and non-diegetic?

Grace East (2:06)

I would love to because I have to explain this to clients all the time. It's a word I learned once I started working here. And then, yeah, whenever I try to explain it, it's like, there's got to be a better word. It's like, I don't know, in-world something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_1 (2:21)

I like in-world.

Dallas Taylor (2:22)

Reality sounds versus non-reality sounds.

Grace East (2:25)

Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_1 (2:27)

Do one of you want to explain what it does mean?

Dallas Taylor (2:30)

I did not do it.

SPEAKER_1 (2:32)

Oh, gosh.

Grace East (2:32)

Okay.

Dallas Taylor (2:33)

Diegetic is when a thing lives in the universe that you're actually in.

Grace East (2:39)

Yeah.

Dallas Taylor (2:39)

So if I turned on a radio behind me, next to my microphone, that's diegetic because it's in my world.

Non-diegetic means it lives in the mind and not in the world of the character. So if we're talking about sound effects, if I'm walking and my footsteps are diegetic because it's part of the world, or if I'm walking in New York City, the horn honks of the taxis and the cars are diegetic, but the whoosh of the camera pan is non-diegetic because that is something that lives outside of the real world inside the story.

SPEAKER_1 (3:17)

Totally. That's a good way to expand it into sound design. In terms of music, non-diegetic music is basically score music. So it helps set the tone of the scene, but the characters in the scene aren't hearing that music. Then diegetic music is something that the characters can hear. So maybe they're listening to the radio or singing a song.

A good example might be in Ferris Bueller's Day Off, when he's dancing in the parade to Twist and Shout.

Grace East (3:51)

Such a classic.

SPEAKER_1 (3:52)

So we'll be talking about both diegetic and non-diegetic music today, because they both involve many of the same kinds of creative decisions and logistical challenges. But before we dive in, do you have any overall thoughts on Needle Drops? Like when a popular song pops up in a movie, do you tend to react a certain way or is it totally dependent on the movie and the song?

Dallas Taylor (4:13)

I generally dislike lyrical music in movies. To me, it's like fourth-wall breaking in a weird way, especially if it's non-diegetic lyric, because it's not only sonically telling me how to feel, which is the role of music, but it's also literally saying words that I have to focus on thematically.

I don't know, I just never really liked lyric music in movies.

SPEAKER_1 (4:42)