NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte Talks Russia-Ukraine War, EU Refining Capacity

Annmarie Hordern (0:02)

Bloomberg Audio Studios.

Mark Rutte (0:04)

Podcasts, radio, news.

Annmarie Hordern (0:07)

An individual that I've had the privilege to catch up with throughout the years, and now here in New York, and someone, he has been sitting down with all of the world leaders, as there are now, of course, two hot wars that UN and UN leaders are trying to address. I'd like to begin what's going on, and thank you so much for joining us here.

Mark Rutte (0:22)

Good to be back.

Annmarie Hordern (0:23)

It's great to see you.

I want to start what's going on first with Russia and Ukraine because you just met with Zelensky on the sidelines of this meeting. You're talking to all the European leaders. Do you see the contours of potentially a ceasefire coming to fruition?

Mark Rutte (0:38)

Well, for that to happen, we need Putin to play a ball, and so far he is not, which is a bit strange because he is losing over 43,000 of his own men each month now, dead or seriously wounded in Ukraine, 1.2 million since this totally unprovoked war started. Or you would think, he is not in a good place, he wants a deal, but somehow he so far is not playing ball. But hey, let's see what happens. And the Ukrainians are doing quite well on the battlefield, holding off the attacks by the Russians.

Annmarie Hordern (1:10)

We know the message from this White House was all about diesel, diesel, diesel, according to this readout from the Financial Times in terms of what the United States is concerned about. They want Ukraine to stop hitting refineries in Russia. Russia has for months an export ban on diesel.

Do you see any willingness from Ukraine to do so?

Mark Rutte (1:29)

Well, you have heard this from the Ukrainian president. He is willing to talk with the Russians or through the Americans to see what the Russians are willing to give in return.

Because his cities are being pummeled and under attack from Russian fire. They are hitting them with missiles and with sometimes jet-powered drones even from Iran. So I think it's fair that there has to be a sort of balance. And I think that's also what the Americans acknowledge. And that's probably what they, but I'm not privy to all those talks, what they also try to accomplish.

Annmarie Hordern (2:02)

I know this is not exactly a NATO problem, but you do speak to all the European leaders. There is discussion amongst the EU that they have this outreach with the US because they are concerned about a diesel export ban because so much diesel goes to Europe from the United States. Are you feeling that frustration, that concern?

Mark Rutte (2:18)

No, I must say, let me not comment on that because that is really European Union. And I made one promise with Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, we work extremely well together, but it doesn't help if we comment on each other's territories. And I leave it with her because she is an excellent leader.

Annmarie Hordern (2:35)

If you don't have diesel though, that could be a problem for NATO.

Mark Rutte (2:38)

But there's also another issue which I can talk about, that is the refining capacity in Europe itself. What we are seeing is no new refineries being built in Europe. We are seeing that refineries are being closed down. And if war breaks out, if the Russians would attack and we have to defend ourselves, we need massive amounts of diesel and other oil products for our F-35s, our fighter jets, for our tanks, et cetera. And that is a big worry, but of course that is not directly linked now to whatever is playing out between the EU and the US.

Annmarie Hordern (3:10)

How do you see the winter shaping up for Ukraine because they still need more Patriot missiles?

Mark Rutte (3:15)

Again, I think over the coming months, you will see Ukraine doing well when it comes to the front line, well when it comes to striking deep inside Russia. But they need all the support they can get from Europe and the US and Canada when it comes to air defense and generally in terms of money and weapons supply into Ukraine. Luckily, that is still continuing, including from the United States, paid for by Canadians and Europeans. This is the Pearl program, which the president and I agreed on last year, July, very successful.

The problem is that there is not sufficient supply at the moment of air defense interceptors, but there is still a lot going into Ukraine, supporting them in defending their cities.