NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte Talks Getting NATO Into 'Better Shape'

**SPEAKER_1** (0:02)
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio, news.

**Joe Mathieu** (0:07)
Following his meeting moments ago in the Oval Office with President Trump is NATO's Secretary General, Mark Rutte.
Mr. Secretary General, welcome back to Bloomberg TV and radio. It means a lot to us to take your time. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. What I know is a very busy day. Absolutely. We saw you in there. We were watching the whole back and forth with yourself, the president, and a gaggle of reporters in the Oval Office. You had everything from whiteboards to stats to make the argument to President Trump. Did you manage to soften some of the edges when it comes to Trump and the Alliance?

**Mark Rutte** (0:39)
Well, I mean, what I think is important is to be fair, and fairness dictates that this president is really doing a huge amount of work to get NATO in better shape. He had a big success last year in The Hague with the 5% spending commitment. But what I wanted to show to him tonight is that over the last 10 years, since Trump 45 and now Trump 47, we see this staggering increase on European and Canadian allies spending more, but also when it comes to the year on year increase, Trump 47 in 2025, almost 20% more spending, which is of course because of Russia and the threat and the war in Ukraine, but also very much because this president is quite forcefully encouraging allies to spend more. And I think it is fair to share that with him.

**Kailey Leinz** (1:26)
Well, and Mr. Secretary General, it's not just the president, it's others in his administration as well. The Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said in Brussels recently that the US would stop paying NATO dues if the allies don't meet defense spending targets. In your understanding, is this just the long term 5% target that matters or has this administration set out to you that there needs to be more interim goals met in the short term?

**Mark Rutte** (1:51)
Well, what we are seeing already with almost 20% increase is that you are reaching the max in terms of absorption capacity. You can only each year on year spend so much more because you have to find and hire and contract a man and woman in uniform. Obviously, you have to work very hard and the US is doing that, Europe is doing that on expanding the output of the defense industrial base which at the moment on both sides of the Atlantic is simply not producing enough. So the President is now meeting with the bosses of the big defense industrial companies in the United States to again make that argument.
But then, given that background, spending almost 20% more means that he not only got the promise in the Hague, but that allies are now delivering. Take Germany spending twice as much in 2029 than it did in 2021, more than 150 billion by 2029 These are really big numbers and a great success.

**Joe Mathieu** (2:45)
I want to ask you about Ukraine, Secretary General. What you heard from President Trump today, it was shocking for a lot of people to see massive black clouds of smoke pluming over St. Petersburg. We know that Ukraine is reaching deeper into Russian territory and making remarkable use of its advanced drone technology. Does President Trump believe Ukraine can win this war militarily?

**Mark Rutte** (3:08)
Well, let me not speak for President Trump, because I think he should do that himself. Obviously, we discussed Ukraine. And you heard this also in the public part of the meeting with the media in the Oval Office, that he acknowledged that Ukraine is doing well on the battlefield. It's doing well in terms of hitting some of the critical infrastructure in Russia. I really think that over the last three to six months, Ukraine is doing much better. And when you look at the amount of Russians getting killed or seriously wounded, we are now reaching numbers of 30,000 to 35,000.
When you look at the war in Vietnam, in 14 years, the United States lost... Russia is now losing in five weeks what the United States lost in 14 years in Vietnam.
Russia is losing now in three weeks what the Russians lost in 10 years in Afghanistan in the 1980s. These are staggering numbers. So as you saw in the public part of the meeting, the president very much acknowledging the fact that Ukrainians are doing so much better. Also thanks to US support, which is there paid for by the European and Canadian allies and other key help the US is providing.

**Kailey Leinz** (4:22)
Well, as we consider what Ukraine has been able to accomplish in the longer range strikes we are seeing into Russian territory. Secretary General, have any of the NATO allies expressed some concern about that? The idea that it could spark further Russian retaliation and rope NATO countries into it?