Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor Say the End of the World is Now on the Table

SPEAKER_1 (0:00)

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Naomi Klein (0:35)

We didn't write the book because we think these people are fascinating. I mean, we wrote this book because we want people to fight them and beat them.

David Marchese (0:45)

I'm David Marchese, and today I'm interviewing Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor.

They've written a book together called End Times Fascism and the Fight for the Living World, which argues that a powerful coalition of tech billionaires, anti-immigration operatives, and many on the religious right have united around a shared belief that the world is ending. But rather than prevent its collapse, they want to accelerate it.

Naomi Klein (1:08)

We call them traders, but not traders to nation, not traders to a flag or a border, but traders to creation, like traders to life.

David Marchese (1:18)

Klein has been a prominent voice on the left for decades, writing acclaimed books like The Shock Doctrine, which is about the link between capitalism and crisis. And Taylor is an activist and organizer who co-founded The Debt Collective, a group advocating for debtors' rights that came out of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

Astra Taylor (1:34)

You are not in debt because you live beyond your means, but because you are denied the means to live.

David Marchese (1:41)

Here's my conversation with Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor. But first, a quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. You can now explore the times for free without paywalls during your first month in the New York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, on to the interview. [♪THEME MUSIC PLAYING [♪THEME MUSIC PLAYING Astra and Naomi, thank you very much for taking the time to speak with me today and thank you for being here.

Astra Taylor (2:07)

Really glad to be here.

Naomi Klein (2:08)

Thank you so much for having us.

David Marchese (2:10)

So the book is called End Times Fascism and the Fight for the Living World. Just to start, Naomi, the most obvious question, what is End Times Fascism?

Naomi Klein (2:22)

So End Times Fascism is a fascism that is very much in conversation with planetary scale existential crises, a fascism that is taking the end of this world for granted.

I think we thought really long and hard about the politics of putting any kind of qualifier on a word like fascism. And the reason we ended up deciding that it did need that is when we really thought about how our world has changed since Mussolini declared himself a fascist. Our fascists have weapons that last century fascists couldn't dream of. And there was no atomic bomb. Hitler and Mussolini died before the Trinity test. They didn't understand that fossil fuels were warming the planet. So our world has changed. Our world has become more dangerous.

And fascism has changed in response and has kind of made peace with the idea of collapse. And now what they're fighting for is who is going to survive that cataclysm.

David Marchese (3:31)

So how does end times fascism make itself felt in the world today?

Naomi Klein (3:38)

The first thing I thought of was the SpaceX IPO.

I mean, how does it make itself? I think for a lot of people, what resonates is like, hey, don't the billionaires have bunkers now? Aren't they somehow prepping? What is this sort of fixation on leaving the earth behind? And like that the only vision of a future that seems to be on offer is a future that says, yeah, things are so messed up here that we have to get on a rocket ship and leave. Like, I don't think the idea of space exploration is inherently fascist, I think the way it is being formulated by an Elon Musk is because it is just accepting that this is, as he puts it, he's saving humanity. What is he saving humanity from exactly? Why do we accept that this world needs escape from?

David Marchese (4:30)

I think sometimes a term like fascism can be foggy for people.

And it's compounded by the fact that over the last 10 or however many years, it's a term that has been used increasingly. So when someone hears you talking about, you know, end times and existential planetary risk, I think that's clear enough where that's coming from. But can you try and clarify, like, who are the fascists in this formulation?