Martin Wolf on Trump's Shakeup of the Global Order

SPEAKER_2 (0:02)

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Tracy Alloway (0:18)

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway.

Joe Weisenthal (0:22)

And I'm Joe Weisenthal.

Tracy Alloway (0:23)

Joe, we're here in London.

Joe Weisenthal (0:24)

Still in London.

Tracy Alloway (0:25)

Still in London, it's been interesting. I think I've mentioned, so I obviously, I went to university here, got my first job here, first at Bloomberg, I left very quickly and joined the FT. And I was here for like 10 years and met my husband here. So I've just been walking around the city this week, just feeling very nostalgic about everything.

Joe Weisenthal (0:44)

This is a very weird time to be in London. For one thing, I have to say like the whole time zone thing really messes me up. And like, I'm like, you know, the concept of time zone still blows my mind a little bit.

Tracy Alloway (0:57)

As an American, I'm not surprised to hear you say that.

Joe Weisenthal (0:59)

The most obvious, it's like, I can't believe the market's still open. But also, you know, we're in a time where changing perceptions towards the US are a big story. And normally, if I'm being honest, if I could be a sort of rude American for a moment.

Tracy Alloway (1:16)

Always, Joe.

Joe Weisenthal (1:17)

Global perceptions of the US are not typically a very big deal to me. They're not something that I think about very often, except insofar as we're in a period where our president claims to want to be doing trade deals with the rest of the world, at which point these elected leaders around the world have domestic constituencies that they have to be accountable to. And as such, perhaps we're in a period where perceptions of the US actually substantively matter.

Tracy Alloway (1:44)

Well, here's the other thing I was thinking about. I was walking past my old university, and I was thinking, both you and I did International Relations.

Joe Weisenthal (1:51)

Yeah.

Tracy Alloway (1:52)

And I was thinking how amazingly irrelevant that degree has become. And I was thinking back to the reading list we had in the early 2000s about implementing globalization and globalization, colon, the way forward and things like that. So much of that just feels completely off the table at this moment.

Joe Weisenthal (2:11)

No, all these hopes for various multilateral agreements. But now the plan is to sign bilateral agreements with 70 different nations in 90 different...

Tracy Alloway (2:23)

While insulting them on a daily basis.

Joe Weisenthal (2:25)

While insulting them. I mean, come on.

Tracy Alloway (2:27)

Okay. So I'm trying to unify all these different themes. My former employer, the future of globalization, the fact that we're here in London at a time when Europe-U.S. relationships really seem to be in the gutter in many ways. So we have the perfect guest.

Joe Weisenthal (2:43)

We do have the perfect guest.

Tracy Alloway (2:44)

Truly the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with Martin Wolf. He is, of course, the chief economics commentator over at the FT, sometimes described as the most important economics commentator in Britain, which given that the UK exports a lot of commentators, is really saying something. Also the author of a book on globalization, of course. Although as I understand it, your feelings have evolved over the years. So Martin, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

Martin Wolf (3:08)

It's a pleasure to be here in beautiful London, which feels very pleasingly away from the US.

Tracy Alloway (3:14)

Yes.

Joe Weisenthal (3:15)

We're setting the tone for the conversation right now.

Tracy Alloway (3:16)

Yeah, there we go. Is it amazing to be an economics commentator in the current environment, or is it incredibly depressing in the sense that we're seeing a lot of new and interesting ideas. I'm doing air quotes, although I'm on a podcast. New and interesting ideas coming out of certain administrations about how economics works and how it could theoretically work. And at the same time, you're seeing the tearing down of a lot of established norms and principles from traditional economics. There's a lot to write about.

Martin Wolf (3:46)

Yes, this was a question that a lot of people asked me during the financial crisis when it was really at its worst and very, very frightening, which is in a very different way that closest to what in my professional career to what we're experiencing now. My answer used to be, I divide myself into two people. As an economist and commentator, it was the best period of my life. As a father and a grandfather, it terrified the wits out of me, and I would say the same now, but probably even more so.