Mark Gurman Talks Apple's Lawsuit with OpenAI

**Tom Keene** (0:00)
So what we're going to do is fly in the men from LA. And we're commercial free with you this hour. Thank you to all of our wonderful advertisers for that. And this is on Apple. Mark Gurman, flat out, drives a conversation worldwide. He joins us, our chief correspondent on technology and Apple at Bloomberg News. How's Tim Cook doing? I mean, the litigation and all, were there tantrums and arguments over the last two weeks as Apple went after Sam and OpenAI?

**Mark Gurman** (0:33)
I have to tell you, they're dealing with so much right now. They have this big management transition, right? Tim Cook stepping down at the beginning of September, John Ternes taking over. They're dealing with the memory shortage, dealing with global politics, Trump, tariffs, you name it.

**Tom Keene** (0:50)
Right.

**Mark Gurman** (0:50)
But it feels like the biggest thing they've been dealing with over the last year is actually OpenAI. Tim Cook, the executive team over there, they've been beside themselves.

**Tom Keene** (0:59)
They've lost 400 people.

**Mark Gurman** (1:01)
400 people. And in their mind, they needed to do something to stop the bleeding.

**Tom Keene** (1:06)
How can they stop people from leaving?

**Mark Gurman** (1:08)
Well, the lawsuit, the lawsuit.

**Tom Keene** (1:10)
Okay, but the lawsuit, every day, everybody leaves, we lose people at Bloomberg, we gain people.

**Mark Gurman** (1:15)
Yes.

**Tom Keene** (1:16)
So what here?

**Mark Gurman** (1:17)
We don't lose, you know, another company, right? Competitor, 10% of that company isn't made up of Bloomberg employees, right? It's 400 people leaving one company for another company. And it's, in Apple's history, completely unprecedented. OpenAI probably made up between 5 and 10% of that company's made up of people who came from Apple. It's, in Apple's view, it's absurd. Apple believes there was some shady behavior going on. They couldn't prove it, of course, until they caught this kid, this iPhone engineer named Cheng Lu, who hacked into Apple servers after he left the company and was able to pull engineering presentations and all sorts of other material. And so they were able to build a case around that.
But one thing I'll tell you is, even so, the lawsuit is kind of flimsy. Like you said, people transfer between companies all the time. That is commonplace. But what Apple's doing here is they created a narrative to scare their current employees, I think.
And if you're an Apple employee right now and you're teetering between staying at Apple and going to OpenAI.

**Tom Keene** (2:18)
That happens here. Mr. Bloomberg walks by me, says, You don't shape up, I'm cutting off coffee.

**Mark Gurman** (2:23)
Oh, that's funny.

**Tom Keene** (2:24)
Paul Sweeney with Mark Gurman.

**Paul Sweeney** (2:26)
What's the intent here of Apple here? Is it, as you suggest, maybe to scare existing employees? But if you don't like to be in a position where you have to do that, you want to create an environment where you want to stay at Apple because it's Apple.

**Mark Gurman** (2:39)
Well, they're okay. Well, how much time do we have? But let's unpack this. So Apple has been dealing with a lot lately. Obviously, the innovation engine has slowed down. There are a lot of people who wanted to go to OpenAI and work on this new technology with the promise of building something revolutionary, thinking we're going to build the next iPhone.
The other thing you have to know is that OpenAI is paying 3, 4, 5X. What Apple is paying.

**Tom Keene** (3:04)
They're just paying them more money.

**Mark Gurman** (3:05)
They're paying them more money.

**Tom Keene** (3:06)
It's like when they go from the Giants to the Dodgers.

**Mark Gurman** (3:09)
It's the combination of, yeah, there's no salary cap in Silicon Valley. You're getting the combination of more money with the promise of working on something far cooler, not doing the same phone or iPad or Apple Watch year after year.

**Tom Keene** (3:20)
It's a bunch of tech guys, and they're all wearing Bruno Cuccinelli t-shirts. I get it. I like the way you style. Mark, is there business, I mean, are we going to get a bombshell for them this quarter, like we did from IBM this morning? I don't see it.

**Mark Gurman** (3:32)
No, that's not going to happen. In fact, if you want to...

**Tom Keene** (3:35)
They hit a record high yesterday.

**Mark Gurman** (3:36)
Well, let's turn the conversation then to Apple's future. What Apple is going to do over the next two and a half years in terms of new products has never happened before in its history.
There is so much stuff coming that I am having a hard time wrapping my hat around it. There's a lot coming. You've never seen anything like this. My credit card is already, I can feel it in my pocket. It's shaking.