Mark Clifford: Mark Clifford discusses the ongoing detention of British citizen and entrepreneur Jimmy Lai in Hong Kong. While China recently released a Protestant pastor, Xi Jinping reportedly remains determined that Lai, a fervent Catholic and advocat

**John Batchelor** (0:16)
I'm John Batchelor, Gordon Chang at Gordon G. Chang joins me to comment along with our friend Mark Clifford, the author of the very helpful troublemaker, The Story of Jimmy Lai, and his very successful career as an actor. I'm John Batchelor, Gordon Chang at Gordon G. Chang and his very successful career until the PRC jailed and abused him for years. And Jimmy Lai is in the news.
A British bishop has written to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, asking for him to do everything possible to secure the release of Jimmy Lai, a British citizen and a Roman Catholic, who has been imprisoned in Hong Kong for six years. Bishop James Currie, lead bishop for freedom of religion or belief at the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales, wrote to Andy Burnham, that's the new Prime Minister, the UK's new Prime Minister, who is also a Roman Catholic. Mark, a very good day to you. This could be very positive. We have a new Prime Minister, and we have the Roman Catholic Church rumbling into action. My measure of the Holy See and Rome for 2,000 years is that it's slow, but it keeps at it. Good day to you, Mark.

**Mark Clifford** (1:26)
Good day to you, John, and I think that's a great place to start. It's very heartwarming to those of us who've been working for Jimmy's freedom for these past, as you say, almost six years, to get a new source of support. And it's Jimmy converted to Catholicism back in 1997 He's a fervent believer, and it's prayer that keeps him alive. And so I think to have Bishop James Curry weighing in with this letter to Prime Minister Burnham is a wonderful development, very, very encouraging.

**John Batchelor** (1:57)
Clifford, you have a question.

**Gordon Chang** (2:00)
So Mark, there are indications that Xi Jinping has absolutely determined that Jimmy Lai will die in jail.
President Trump has tried to free Jimmy. That has not occurred. Instead, Xi Jinping freed a Protestant pastor, Ezra Chen, but told President Trump, Xi Jinping told President Trump, that Jimmy Lai will stay in jail. What is your measure?

**Mark Clifford** (2:26)
Well, it's glass half full or glass half empty. President Trump, when he was the candidate, back two years ago in October, said it would be very easy to free Jimmy Lai.
He and his administration have consistently worked on that. He first brought up Jimmy's case to General Secretary Xi Jinping on the edge of the APEC meeting in South Korea last October at his summit. I think that was a very much like, okay, we're concerned, next issue, check the box kind of thing. In May, there was apparently quite a robust, if not contentious, back and forth between President Trump and General Secretary Xi Jinping.
And Xi apparently told Trump it would be difficult in Trump's words. He didn't say impossible.
They did free Pastor Ezra Jin. I think that's an extremely positive sign. They didn't put Jin on trial. They held him for about 10 months. But it was pretty unusual in the Chinese context just to throw him out. They put him on a plane. He thought he was going to another prison. Next stop was Los Angeles. He didn't know till the plane took off. They didn't force him to sign a confession. So, I hope that Xi Jinping realizes that Jimmy Lai is more trouble in prison than out. It seems that it's gotten to be somewhat personal between Xi and Jimmy. I don't think Jimmy felt that way. But apparently, when he was speaking with Trump about this, Xi Jinping was speaking without notes, suggesting that he is more than fully briefed on this. We have to remember that he was involved in Hong Kong affairs, Xi Jinping, going back to 2007 when he took over as vice president, took over as the head of this central government driven group looking at Hong Kong, the leading group on Hong Kong and Macau. So Xi Jinping is very well-versed. I'm sorry if he feels that an aging entrepreneur and freedom fighter, publisher like Jimmy Lai is such a threat to the 1.3 billion people of China, that he needs to die in prison. I think that would be a disaster for China, quite frankly. Once Jimmy dies in prison, they don't have any more leverage. All they have is another stain on their reputation.

**John Batchelor** (4:41)
Mark, I hesitate because I'm trained to read novels and look for motives. I'm trained that way and so it bleeds over into history, and history is not logical. I understand that. But your mention of it's personal with Xi Jinping.
Xi Jinping's dad was persecuted by Mao and the party after years of dedicated work for the party. He was exiled and abused. And Xi Jinping knows that. He was too. He was also abused by the party.