Lindsay Clancy Trial: Prosecution's Psychologist Says She Knew Right From Wrong

**Tony Brueski** (0:00)
This is live courtroom coverage of the trial of Lindsay Clancy. From the Hidden Killers podcast in True Crime Today.
Now, back to the courtroom.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:11)
Good morning, Doug.

**Kirk Heilbrun** (0:13)
Good morning, Your Honor.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:15)
Hi, Treespawn. Hey, Your Honor.
Do you need a moment?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (0:20)
I do.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:43)
So, Doctor, could you tell us what is peritraumatic, traumatic? Sorry, let me start over. Can you tell us what peritraumatic disassociation is and whether it factored into your evaluation in this case?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (0:57)
Yes, that's the kind of thing that you experience when you're going through a very frightening or traumatic set of situation or circumstances or whatever. And it's the sort of thing that you can experience in the sense that you kind of feel that things are unreal or that it's not you. It's like you're watching yourself go through actions and so on. And it's the sort of thing that if you talk about it, it sounds like it could be psychotic, but it's actually more likely to be a recognized aspect of going through a traumatic situation or a set of circumstances that many people going through something like that would experience.

**SPEAKER_2** (1:47)
And when you say going through something like that, are you talking about when the defendant was strangling her children?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (1:56)
That would be one example because that was very traumatic for her.

**SPEAKER_2** (2:00)
And did the defendant show signs of peritraumatic disassociation in the records or in your conversation with her?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (2:14)
She did. She talked about feeling like it wasn't her, like she was watching herself, like she was going through what she called no thinking, no decision making, only responding to the voice and taking action.

**SPEAKER_2** (2:33)
And when she said that there was no decision making involved, did you see anything in the records or in her detailing of what happened that was inconsistent with that claim, that there was no decision making?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (2:47)
Yeah. This is difficult, but important to say, that there are just many ongoing decisions that have to be made to accomplish a killing like this in 18 to 20 minutes. For example, why the basement?
Who among the children goes first? What do you say to the kids to keep them from panicking? There are other examples, but...

**SPEAKER_2** (3:20)
Yeah, hold on. And so, what types of decisions, without getting to what she might have said or thought, what are some types of decisions that had to be made to effectuate the strangulation of the children?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (3:38)
Well, I tried to give some examples a minute ago, and I don't want to go too...

**SPEAKER_2** (3:43)
All right, hold on.

**Kirk Heilbrun** (3:44)
Just answer the question, all right? Don't comment on the rulings of the court.
Just answer the question, please.

**SPEAKER_2** (3:54)
Okay? If I could rephrase. Yeah, yeah. Doctor, the choice of where to strangle the children, does that have to be a choice of where that happens?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (4:04)
Yes.

**SPEAKER_2** (4:05)
The decision of how to strangle them, is that a decision that needs to be made?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (4:10)
Yes.

**SPEAKER_2** (4:11)
What to use to strangle the children, is that a decision that has to be made?

**Tony Brueski** (4:15)
I'm sorry, I have to object. No, overruled.

**Kirk Heilbrun** (4:17)
I'll allow that.

**SPEAKER_2** (4:19)
What to use to strangle the children, is that a decision that has to be made?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (4:23)
Yes, it is.

**SPEAKER_2** (4:24)
The order in which to strangle the children, is that a decision that has to be made?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (4:28)
That's another example of the decision, yes. Decisions.

**SPEAKER_2** (4:33)
And the way in which to kill herself, was that, were those decisions that had to be made?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (4:40)
Yes, they were.

**SPEAKER_2** (4:44)
Now, you said that this peritraumatic disassociation seems like it would be a sign of psychosis, but isn't, why isn't it?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (4:55)
It's actually something that is much more commonly experienced in that kind of set of circumstances than psychotic symptoms.

**SPEAKER_2** (5:06)
And yesterday when you went through the two options that you considered, that this was psychosis with command hallucinations or suicide with altruistic filicide. Is your testimony that it's either or, or it's one or the other?

**Kirk Heilbrun** (5:22)
It's my testimony that those were the two possibilities that seem to have some evidence. But at the end of talking to her, testing, reviewing all the information, doing the collateral interviews, everything I did as a part of this evaluation, the evidence much more strongly, in my opinion, supported the second explanation, which was the serious suicide attempt accompanied by killing the children out of love.