Lindsay Clancy Trial: FBI Psychiatrist Says She Knew Right From Wrong

**Tony Brueski** (0:00)
This is live courtroom coverage of the trial of Lindsay Clancy from the Hidden Killers podcast in True Crime Today. Now, back to the courtroom.
All right, good morning, doctor.

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (0:14)
Morning.

**Kevin Reddington** (0:16)
All right, tree spree.

**Tony Brueski** (0:17)
Thank you, your honor. Good morning.

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (0:20)
Good morning.

**Tony Brueski** (0:22)
Yesterday, when we left off, you were testifying about the decision-making process of the defendant and what she told you about that.
Going to what she told you about the voice and what it said to her. Did the defendant tell you that the voice told her where to kill the children? No. Did the voice tell her how to kill the children?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (0:47)
No.

**Tony Brueski** (0:48)
Did the voice tell her what to use to kill the children?
No. Did the voice tell her in what order to kill the children?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (0:57)
No.

**Tony Brueski** (0:58)
Did the voice tell her where to try to kill herself?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (1:01)
No.

**Tony Brueski** (1:02)
Did the voice tell her in what way to kill herself?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (1:06)
No.

**Tony Brueski** (1:08)
The fact that the voice, according to the defendant, the voice didn't tell her any of those things, but instead just said kill the kids so you can kill yourself. Is that significant in your evaluation in any way?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (1:20)
Yes.

**Tony Brueski** (1:20)
How so?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (1:23)
Well, in the small amount of time that Ms. Clancy had in the home without her husband, it was important in order to carry this out, as well as her suicide, to do this quickly, methodically, and the like. And so this is having no instructions as to how to do it, but being able to execute those decisions, including being able to get a phone call and then return it to her husband in the process of all of this. Certainly, the phone call was not expected. That is surprising that she's able to accomplish all of this.
Without any other kind of direction or plan.

**Tony Brueski** (2:19)
Does that indicate to you that she was making decisions about those things about where and how and when?

**Kevin Reddington** (2:25)
And this is, again, a further record, direct examination, it's leading by objective, have a standing objection. Yeah, if you could just rephrase that.

**Tony Brueski** (2:33)
What does the fact that she was able to do all of that indicate to you, if anything?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (2:38)
Well, it indicated that she had control, control of the sequence of what she was doing throughout.

**Tony Brueski** (2:49)
Doctor, you talk in your report about interpersonal psychological theory of suicide. What is that?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (2:56)
Well, that has to do with the decision-making process or capability for someone who attempts suicide.

**Tony Brueski** (3:08)
Are there three parts to that theory?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (3:10)
Yes.

**Tony Brueski** (3:11)
What are they?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (3:13)
Well, one would be called aloneness or the sense of isolation, people not understanding. So that is a real difficult challenge for people to face. They feel that they can't fully share with others.
Another is burdensomeness. If someone feels that they are a burden to others, that is also something that we find is a component to those who make serious suicide attempts and completions. And third is what I would call capability. So you can have that sense of aloneness. You can have that sense of burdensomeness. But if you don't have the capability of taking your life, you would be very suicidal but not ultimately accomplish the suicide. It does not mean that you're not suicidal.
But that issue of capability is one that's very difficult because we have a natural will to live. That is the most difficult thing for people to overcome.

**Tony Brueski** (4:44)
The thing that's the most difficult thing to overcome, that's the capability of actually committing suicide? Is that what you're saying?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (4:51)
Correct.

**Tony Brueski** (4:52)
This theory in the three parts, did you compare what Ms. Clancy told you and what you saw in the records to this theory and have any conclusions about that?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (5:04)
Yes.

**Tony Brueski** (5:05)
And what were they?

**Dr. Gregory Saathoff** (5:06)
Well, certainly, the documentation from the medical and mental health records demonstrates that sense of isolation she felt, even in the company of others. That sense that she was just having a problem that was difficult, difficult for her to understand, difficult for others to understand. And of course, the suicidal feelings that came about, and then ultimately those feelings about harming her children. This is not something that she could share.