Lindsay Clancy Trial: Dr. Mack Reveals the "Last Chance" Voice She Says She Heard

**Tony Brueski** (0:00)
This is live courtroom coverage of the trial of Lindsay Clancy from the Hidden Killers podcast in True Crime Today. Now, back to the courtroom.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:13)
Dr. Mack, before we broke, we were talking about protective factors in suicide. Do you recall that?

**Avram Mack** (0:19)
Yes, I do.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:20)
Can you just explain to the jury what a protective factor is?

**Avram Mack** (0:23)
Well, when a person is suicidal, they have risk factors and they have protective factors. Risk factors are those aspects of the individual that make it more likely that the person is going to act on their suicidal thoughts. And protective factors do the opposite. There are things that hold the person back from acting on their suicidal interests.

**SPEAKER_2** (0:45)
And in this case, you're aware that the defendant had previously indicated that her kids and her mother were reasons why she didn't continue with the thoughts of suicide in the past, right?

**Kevin Reddington** (1:00)
Well, objection is not the thoughts, it's the action.

**Avram Mack** (1:03)
No, overruled. You can answer. I'm not sure if your question is that kept her from acting on suicidal interests or ideation.

**SPEAKER_2** (1:13)
I guess the important part I'm trying to piece together is it was her statements to professionals that her parent, her mother and her kids were reasons why she wouldn't have committed the act.

**Avram Mack** (1:28)
Correct.

**SPEAKER_2** (1:29)
And you are aware that at the time of the event or after the event, she indicated that a voice told her that she needed to kill the kids so that she could kill herself.

**Avram Mack** (1:42)
Yes.

**SPEAKER_2** (1:44)
And this was the same day that she then attempted to kill herself.

**Avram Mack** (1:48)
Correct.

**SPEAKER_2** (1:51)
Now, on the day of January 24th, 2023, you are aware that the defendant had reported that that, for all intents and purposes, earlier in the day was a good day.

**Avram Mack** (2:03)
There are reports that earlier in the day was a good day.

**SPEAKER_2** (2:07)
And is the fact that she reported good feelings consistent with the suicidality or inconsistent?

**Kevin Reddington** (2:14)
I apologize. Did he say that she said she had a good day or someone else did? I just didn't hear that.

**Avram Mack** (2:19)
If you could maybe kind of bring out what that source is.

**SPEAKER_2** (2:23)
Well, as far as the reports of it being a good day, when you spoke with her, did she describe the events earlier in the day as a good day? Playing with the kids, that kind of thing?

**Avram Mack** (2:35)
She described the day as being a fun and productive day.

**SPEAKER_2** (2:38)
And you're aware that others reported, including her husband Patrick, that earlier that day, it appeared to have been a good day.

**Avram Mack** (2:46)
Right. So one example is when Patrick was talking to the child welfare agency that evening, I believe, he said that was the best day she had had in a long time.

**SPEAKER_2** (2:57)
So...

**Avram Mack** (2:57)
Or something to that effect.

**SPEAKER_2** (2:59)
The fact that there were reports of it being a good day, is that inconsistent or consistent with the idea of the attempted suicide?

**Avram Mack** (3:09)
It's not inconsistent with suicide. It's also not inconsistent with the depressive disorder that she had.
Much of the time, depression, major depressive episodes start to recover after around three or four months. It also is a, in my own view in psychiatry and I believe others, an awareness that as a person is beginning to recover from the worst of their depression, sometimes suicides do happen when the person starts developing a little bit more energy and ability to act on their interests.

**SPEAKER_2** (3:47)
So in your experience, do people sometimes display those positive feelings immediately prior to either an attempt or suicide?

**Avram Mack** (4:00)
Yes, that is something that does happen in my experience. Well, they are still very depressed, but they begin to be on the trajectory towards relative improvement.

**SPEAKER_2** (4:13)
Now, just going back for a quick second, you had talked a little bit about hallucinations and you described different types of hallucinations, meaning things that you can taste or hear or see, right? Are you familiar with what's called command hallucinations?

**Avram Mack** (4:31)
Yes.

**SPEAKER_2** (4:32)
What are those?

**Avram Mack** (4:34)
Command auditory hallucinations are a type of hallucination where you're hearing something and it is telling you or telling you of an expectation for you to do.

**SPEAKER_2** (4:46)
And are those things usually persistent?

**Avram Mack** (4:50)
It can be. It can vary sometimes. It can be persistent.
Other times it can be sporadic.