Joseph Torigian on Xi Zhongxun and Elite Chinese Communist Party Politics

SPEAKER_2 (0:02)

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Joe Weisenthal (0:18)

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.

Tracy Alloway (0:23)

And I'm Tracy Alloway.

Joe Weisenthal (0:24)

Tracy, sometimes I read 20th century Chinese history and...

Tracy Alloway (0:30)

Sometimes, just a little.

Joe Weisenthal (0:32)

No, here's something I don't understand. I read about the Mao era, the Deng Xiaoping era, and all the various codgers, they're all like, oh, we're guilty of committed left deviationism or right deviationism or all this stuff. And they're all really worried about whether they're going to get expelled or something like that. And I never know what any of these words mean. I actually feel like I have no intuitive understanding of how elite level Chinese Communist Party politics works. And I think I probably should, given the growing stakes and the growing awareness with which we as Americans all have to be aware about how China works.

Tracy Alloway (1:08)

Wait, if you're reading lots of China history books, you must know what self-criticism is, right?

Joe Weisenthal (1:13)

I know what self-criticism is. But I don't know why they're like, oh, you engaged in revisionism, or you engaged in ultra leftism, or you engaged in ultra rightism. And I don't know what any of these terms mean.

Tracy Alloway (1:23)

Right. Well, my experience of China is that sometimes the rules are a little sketchy on purpose, right? So that there isn't a clear definition so that you can go after whoever you want. You know what I do to learn about Chinese history?

Joe Weisenthal (1:39)

Tell me.

Tracy Alloway (1:40)

Chinese historical dramas. I love them.

Joe Weisenthal (1:43)

Do you mean like plays or books?

Tracy Alloway (1:44)

No, no, I mean TV shows. Oh, TV shows. Probably the equivalent of soap operas in the States.

Joe Weisenthal (1:50)

Do you have a favorite?

Tracy Alloway (1:51)

Oh, I have one I'm watching right now. I'll tell you afterwards.

Joe Weisenthal (1:53)

Okay.

Tracy Alloway (1:54)

It's so good. But the reason I bring it up is because relatively recently there was a historical drama that was all about Xi Jinping's father.

Joe Weisenthal (2:03)

Oh, I saw some screenshots from that. I think someone like uploaded it all to you. Have you watched it?

Tracy Alloway (2:08)

I haven't. I've been looking for it and I haven't been able to find it. So if you find it on YouTube, let me know. But the reason I bring it up is because we're going to be speaking about his life today to the author of one of his biographies, The First English-Speaking Biography, and the series itself got panned when it came out. It was really funny and there are some quotes that said, oh, I think Chinese youth today would rather watch Stranger Things than learn about the history of the CCP. So we're going to try to make CCP history as interesting as Stranger Things on this podcast.

Joe Weisenthal (2:43)

We're also, I guess, going to make the case maybe to American listeners, and maybe some Chinese youth if they're listening, that it's worth learning about. Absolutely. Whether it's interesting or not, it's like, okay, it's the year 2025 Do we need to revisit the history in Yunnan or the Northwest provinces or whatever? All this stuff. Is this really important? Anyway, we obviously have the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with Joseph Torigian.

He is a research fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution and an associate professor at American University. And he is the author of a new book, The Party's Interests Come First, The Life of Xi Zhongxun, Father of Xi Jinping. Joseph, thank you so much for coming on Odd Lots.

Joseph Torigian (3:22)

Thanks so much for having me.

Joe Weisenthal (3:23)

Why are we interested? Or I guess you, why were you? Why is anyone interested and worth spending time to learn about the life of Xi Zhongxun?

Joseph Torigian (3:34)

You know, while I was listening to your conversation, I was thinking about how one of the things that Xi Jinping is trying to achieve is make the regime immortal by having people study party history. He believes that one of the ways to keep the party vigilant and dedicated and at one with the people is to learn from the legacy of the revolutionaries. So what that history is, teaching that history is moral education is at the very heart of Xi Jinping's project. So that begs the question, what was that history? And I tried to tell it through the prism of his own father with my book.

Tracy Alloway (4:13)

So one question I always wanted to ask a sort of CCP expert is why would anyone want to join the party in the sort of 1940s, 1950s, 1970s? I understand that hindsight is 2020, but looking back, first of all, no one knew how this was all going to turn out. And secondly, it seems like your life as a sort of minor party official could be very, very tricky and very dangerous in some ways to Joe's point about things like self-criticism and getting in trouble for leftist deviations or rightist deviations or whatever. It doesn't seem like a fun time.