Is Israel trapped in a Forever War?

**Jamie Rubin** (0:02)
This is a Global Player Original Podcast.

**Christiane Amanpour** (0:05)
I happened to leave Lebanon in the morning. By the time I got back to London, everybody was texting me and talking about, oh my gosh, you got out in time. This will not be resolved on the battlefield.

**Jamie Rubin** (0:18)
This conflict in Lebanon is now essentially the spark that can restart the war in the region.

**Christiane Amanpour** (0:26)
We have had enough of just surviving. This has been going on 60 years, and she said, we just want to live. He spoke to me in a way that most Lebanese told me they had never heard a Lebanese president speak so bluntly.

**Jamie Rubin** (0:39)
One assumption that turned out to be correct was that the Iranians are a resilient warrior nation.

**Christiane Amanpour** (0:45)
The Iranians won't settle for anything unless they believe and they trust that there will not be another war launched on them. So it's really complicated, really, really, really complicated.
Hi, everyone. It is the latest episode of the Ex Files with me, Christiane Amanpour, in London.

**Jamie Rubin** (1:09)
And Jamie Rubin in New York.

**Christiane Amanpour** (1:11)
So two big questions today.
The battle for Lebanon. Does that actually hold the key to resolving the Israel-US-Iran war? And what about the relationship between Trump and Netanyahu? So it is getting more and more publicly known, at least Trump is letting it be known, that he has differences and he is irritated with something and some of the actions that Bibi Netanyahu takes. So we will talk about all of that. But first, Lebanon. Jamie, I was just there these last few days. I happened to leave Lebanon on Sunday in the morning. By the time I got back to London, everybody was texting me and talking about, oh my gosh, you got out in time.
There was another flare-up between Israel and Hezbollah, with Israel bombing parts of South Beirut called Dahya. And Iran also getting in on the act, sending a missile towards Israel, Hezbollah firing a missile into northern air. I mean, I don't know how many, I'm just saying A. But it was an exchange between all of them. Now, a lot of diplomacy was exerted, probably by President Trump in no uncertain terms. And Iran has now suspended its action. And for the last several hours at least, there have been no further Israeli strikes. But Jamie, I was really, really not shocked, but it was my first time in Lebanon to hear from the Lebanese people and from the president himself, Joseph Aoun, how much they cannot stand the Islamic Republic of Iran, and how much they absolutely want to be a sovereign nation finally, and that this is about Lebanon and the Lebanese, not about Iran and its proxies, and Iran using Lebanon as its battlefield, etc. So I wasn't shocked, but I was really, really convinced that so many of the people feel that way.
It was really interesting, Jamie.

**Jamie Rubin** (3:12)
Well, that is interesting. I think somewhat knew at least in the recent, say, year or two that the Hezbollah factor has changed for a long time. Many Lebanese, as I understand it, and I confess that you may know more about Lebanon than I do. I at least know about it from the diplomatic side a bit.
Many Lebanese regarded Hezbollah as their savior for getting the Israelis out of Lebanon.
And then there was a time when an agreement had been struck when the first ceasefire was arranged between the Biden administration and the Hezbollah agreed to go north of the Latani River. And there was hope that a new president, a president who you chose, who people were very, very pleased was chosen. It seemed like Lebanon was coming together to try to do exactly what you said, to let the Lebanon be Lebanon rather than the battleground for the Middle East, the sort of microcosm of the wars of the Middle East. Unfortunately, that's not really possible until Iran and Israel allow that to happen. And right now, that's not happening, as you point out.

**Christiane Amanpour** (4:24)
And again, you know, we often talk sort of 3,000 or 30,000 feet up about the big picture and the diplomacy.
And you can weigh in on some of the past diplomacy. But let's not forget that Hezbollah was formed in 1982 by the Iranians inside Lebanon to deal with the first Israeli invasion of that time in 1982 And so they started to fight and fight and fight against that and stayed and stayed and stayed. And, you know, so many Lebanese say, you know, Southern Lebanon is and the Hezbollah strongholds, that's not even Lebanon, they say that that's little Iran.