How’s Trump’s new American Empire going?

**SPEAKER_1** (0:02)
This is a Global Production.

**Christiane Amanpour** (0:05)
I mean, it was an absolute disaster. You'd have thought the United States would have learned that it's really hard, if not impossible in modern times, to put a leader in a foreign country, an American leader and say, you go run it. But that's extraordinary, isn't it? It's like pocket money to the kids. I'll take your export revenue and give it back to you how I best see fit.

**James Rubin** (0:26)
Viceroy is a term that says we own this place, we run this place. That is completely against everything the United States has said it believed in.

**Christiane Amanpour** (0:34)
This model of might makes right or even humanitarian intervention is more likely to fail than not. What the actual heck? I mean, seriously, I want to tear my hair out.
Hello, everyone. It is the latest episode of The Ex Files. We thought we'd look back to look forward, back only as far as January with the removal of Nicolas Maduro by the United States and then what the US suddenly decided was its might makes right policy. You're going to hear that exact statement from Trump's Bane Czar, who is Stephen Miller. You'll hear about what exactly he said and how is that might make right thing working out for everybody. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

**James Rubin** (1:25)
And I'm Jamie Rubin in New York.

**Christiane Amanpour** (1:28)
You know, Jamie, I just do want to say that I'm sitting here in London broiling. The fifth heat wave of recent weeks is going to, is being declared. And, you know, if I was a swearing person, I might go on a real tirade right now, because I just cannot believe it. As we're broiling, because of fossil fuels and the inability of the United States and others to combat this, I read that Trump is paying various countries and companies to not put their wind turbine plans to realization and that he wants to pay them off. Don't put up your wind turbines nowhere here in the United States anyway. And here's the money for it. And please invest in US fossil fuels. I mean, honestly, it's no wonder nothing good is going on in the world, not to mention, you know, American leadership.
What do you think of that?

**James Rubin** (2:23)
What I would mention about that is, since you know, I have a little bit of a knee jerk when it comes to China.
What worries me about all this is that the Chinese have started to dominate the electric car market, and they're dominating it globally. They've been preparing for a time with less fossil fuels. Even though they are a great emitter of fossil fuels, they have husbanded their resources. They're not as suffering as much from the lack of oil, and they're trying to dominate the electric car market. So it's not good for democracy, and it's not good for those of us who would not like to sweat all day.

**Christiane Amanpour** (3:02)
Exactly. But I'm saying to China, bring it on. Please give us your best effort and your best products when it comes to mitigating this catastrophe that nobody is really dealing with seriously, certainly not in the United States. And maybe that's a good way to start with, as I said, going back to go forward, because Venezuela pretty much was also all about oil, right? The idea of removing Nicolas Maduro, putting a pliant Maduro-lite government in place that the US can govern and rule and dictate to.
In the end, everything you hear from the Trump administration is that we want to direct their oil reserves and make sure Americans get the best deal when it comes to more capacity on fossil fuels. But Jamie, let's talk about that being the kickoff for Trump 2 world view of might makes right.

**James Rubin** (4:04)
Well, you're right. And we'll get to Stephen Miller in a moment. But look, people don't like this phrase because it sounds goofy, rules-based order. What does that mean? It means that the states, the countries of the world have agreed on some basic principles of how to operate, whether that's related to trade, whether it's related to law, whether it's related to the use of military power, and that they have forums like the UN Security Council or NATO or other ways to try to enforce this rules-based order so that people can go about their business of doing business, thriving, improving people's lives. That rules-based order, that underlying structure is what has brought peace and prosperity, at least until recently, to Europe and Asia after thousands of years of warfare. And it's that rules-based order.