How Your Thoughts Are Built & How You Can Shape Them | Dr. Jennifer Groh

**Jennifer Groh** (0:00)
What goes on in our brains when we think might be that we're running simulations related to the thought using that sensory motor infrastructure of the brain.

**Andrew Huberman** (0:11)
Could you elaborate?

**Jennifer Groh** (0:12)
So the theory is that maybe when you think about a cat, for example, or you think the concept of a cat, that the mental instantiation of that, or the brain mechanism instantiation of having that thought, is to run a little simulation and visual cortex that kind of includes what a cat looks like. A simulation and auditory cortex, that what does a cat sound like? And as I'm telling you this, I've used the word cat. What color cat are you thinking?

**Andrew Huberman** (0:41)
I'm thinking of a gray cat, but I keep smelling kitty litter. Because my sister had cats and it drove me, the smell of kitty litter is just so aversive to me.

**Jennifer Groh** (0:49)
Right? So you had no hesitation in telling me the color and adding an additional sensory quality. It provides an explanation for why you might be driving on the freeway and having to merge into difficult traffic and telling your passenger, okay, be quiet, I've got to pay attention now. Like, why would speech impair you from visual motor if it wasn't all part of a kind of cognitive system that's in operation and maybe you need to shift some resources away from processing the conversation and towards some, you know, actually dealing with the here and now sensory motor task.

**Andrew Huberman** (1:32)
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a Professor of Neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Jennifer Groh. Dr. Jennifer Groh is a Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience at Duke University. Her laboratory studies how our brain represents the world around us. In particular, how our different senses are merged in the brain so that we can focus and learn more effectively, including how our eye movements fundamentally shape not just what we pay attention to, but how they dynamically control what our brain is capable of. What she shares is fundamental to understanding how your brain works, and also how best to focus on and learn different types of information. Not just information that you might read on a page, although including that, but also what you hear, what you remember, and the very thoughts you have about your life experiences. We also discuss thinking itself. In fact, we discuss what thoughts really are. And there, Dr. Groh shares with us what is perhaps the clearest and most useful definition of what thoughts are and how you can control them. As someone who has been in the field of neuroscience for nearly three decades, I must say that her explanation of what thinking is at the neural level, at the psychological level, and at the experiential level is the most compelling and useful one I've ever come across. Today, Dr. Groh explains how to use your experiences, the information you encounter, and knowledge of how thoughts are built up in the brain to become a better thinker and indeed smarter. I'm certain that the information you'll learn from Dr. Groh today is not like any other discussion you've heard about the brain or psychology. I'm also certain that it will be extremely useful for anyone wishing to better understand how the brain works, how their thoughts and emotions arise, and anyone who wants to get better at learning, thinking more deeply, or simply experiencing life with more richness. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Jennifer Groh. Dr. Jennifer Groh, welcome.

**Jennifer Groh** (3:43)
Thank you, it's great to be here.

**Andrew Huberman** (3:45)
We've never had a proper conversation on this podcast about sensory integration. We've talked about vision, talked a little bit about hearing, a little bit about touch, smell, taste, but we've never talked about how the senses come together. And that's critical to everyday life, critical to perception.

**Jennifer Groh** (4:03)
Absolutely.

**Andrew Huberman** (4:04)
I know you focused perhaps mainly on the auditory system, but you really are an auditory visual integration person. I know this because I've followed your work for a number of years. So where in the brain do our eyes and our ears first come together to impact our perception of life? Like we, you know, the tea kettle is whistling or, you know, we hear a knock on the door, we know where the door is, we know where the tea kettle ought to be, but where do these things first collide?