How Your Immune System Works & How to Improve It | Dr. Max Krummel

**Dr. Max Krummel** (0:00)
A famous immunologist in the 1970s drew this parallel in wartime and said in World War II, submarines had two sets of books. One of them was a book that gave them the sound profile of all the US submarines. And so they could listen to the whir of the engines, and if they heard a whir of the engine that had the certain cycle of a general motor's engine, they wouldn't fire. So that's the sort of like self, I know what self is. And then they had another book that was the engine sounds of the known diesel engines, or whatever engines of the German submarines. And if they heard that, then they absolutely would fire. And that's a self versus non-self discrimination problem, just like the immune system has to do.
But what I bring you with it, aging, is this concept that as you get weirder and different, and your body is getting more complex, then those books start to have every possible, possibly every possible permutation of every biomolecule could be made by your body at that point. And then a virus doesn't necessarily have anything unique about it.

**Andrew Huberman** (0:56)
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Max Krummel, a professor and leading expert in immunology and cancer biology at the University of California, San Francisco.
Today, we discuss your immune system, how it works, what it needs to function at its best, and how things like aging, vaccines, sleep, and even your thoughts and emotions shape immune function. For instance, most everybody knows that being sleep deprived makes you more prone to getting sick. But why? Meaning mechanistically, why? Well, it turns out there's a specific set of cells that need to migrate in a particular way during sleep, and we talk about how you can reinforce that process in ways other than sleep. We also discuss incredible findings that certain brain states and memories can be associated with an immune system status you had when those memories formed, and evidence that just recalling those memories, thinking about where you were, what you were feeling at those times when the memories formed, can activate your immune system in the same way, which is remarkable. We also have a very candid discussion about vaccines and medications more broadly. You'll notice that Dr. Krummel is incredibly balanced throughout today's conversation, and yet he's also willing to state his views very clearly. So it provides a very rich discussion about vaccines and all the rest. Indeed, thanks to Max's incredible breadth of understanding of immunology and much more, and his ability to break down complex topics and make them accessible, plus his genuine care for public education and science, today's is a truly special and important episode to educate and inform you in actionable ways. I should also mention that Dr. Krummel has an incredible zero-cost sub-stack. It's called The Immune Beyond. You can access it by going to theimmunebeyond.substack.com, and there he teaches about science and more. Again, it's awesome, it's free, so definitely check it out. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Max Krummel.
Dr. Max Krummel, welcome.

**Dr. Max Krummel** (3:16)
Thanks.

**Andrew Huberman** (3:17)
Most everybody, including me, has heard of this thing we call the immune system. And most people just think, okay, this is the thing that when I'm rested, it keeps me from getting sick.
And when I'm not as well rested, I tend to get more sick. And there are these airborne things and we can get sick. And there's like funguses and viruses. And I think that's probably what most people understand. And they probably also understand that there are like cells and T cells and B cells.
But if we want to think about a little bit of the history of our understanding of the immune system and what we understand now, maybe you could orient us. Because in reading your work prior to this discussion, I'm realizing that this is a very recent field. And also, there's still a lot that we do not understand.

**Dr. Max Krummel** (4:02)
When I started in immunology, sort of 30 years ago, I was rotating in labs at Berkeley, I think you were at Berkeley as well.
And one of the transcription factor biologists, mentor said, why do you want to work in immunology? It's not really a field. And so at the time, it was kind of true. Everything was about DNAs, cloning. We still, it's obviously still a lot about molecular biology, what we do.