How to Improve Motivation & Overcome Procrastination | Dr. Masud Husain

**Masud Husain** (0:00)
Almost every drug of addiction, whether we go from nicotine to alcohol to heroin to cocaine to amphetamine, almost every drug of addiction hijacks that dopamine system we were talking about. We find when that circuitry is not working, that you can get profound loss of motivation, apathy.
When that circuitry is on overdrive, because it's been hijacked by these drugs, you get states of hypermotivation. So, of course, this is going to be overly simplistic to think dopamine levels are the only factor that affect our motivation. But it certainly turns out to be a very important factor in graduating the level of motivation we have to seek particular outcomes.

**Andrew Huberman** (0:46)
Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.
I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Masud Husain, who is a neurologist and neuroscientist at Oxford, making key discoveries about the relationship between motivation and pleasure. Today we discuss what really determines our level of drive and determination to do everything from getting up to go to school or work to pursuing long, hard challenges that last many years. We start off by talking about the opposite of motivation, which of course is apathy. And as you'll learn, perhaps surprisingly, apathy is separate from one's desire for something. We also discuss something very useful, which is how you can change your own perception of your own effort level. Today's discussion really gets to the heart of motivation and procrastination and how anyone, healthy or otherwise, can leverage that understanding to their benefit. As you'll soon hear, Dr. Masud Husain is a remarkable scientist, neurologist and communicator. Indeed, he's the author of a spectacular book, I've read it.
It's entitled, Our Brain, Ourselves. And it's a terrific read if you want to learn more about how your brain works, how it can change over time and how it makes you who you are. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Masud Husain. Dr. Masud Husain, welcome.

**Masud Husain** (2:26)
Thank you for having me.

**Andrew Huberman** (2:28)
You've worked on a huge variety of topics. Alzheimer's, attention, apathy. We're definitely going to talk about apathy.
Spatial neglect, which I'm guessing most of our audience probably doesn't know exactly what that is. I'd like to start with the one that sounds like a bit of a downer, but as a window into understanding motivation and the states of excitement that most of us would like to be in, but let's talk about and really define through your lens, what is apathy? How does the brain bring about this thing that we call apathy? And is apathy just a lack of motivation?

**Masud Husain** (3:05)
Yeah, I mean, these are big questions. And I think the way we've approached them is somewhat serendipitous in the sense that, you know, 15 years ago, I wasn't studying apathy or motivation.
Like many people, I might think someone's lazy or they're highly motivated. But that's a sort of psychological state. It's a personality. And it was only about 15 years ago, I started beginning to be aware that there may be an important biology underlying motivation. And when that biology goes wrong, it can lead to loss of motivation and even pathological apathy. And the way this happened was completely out of the blue.
I was then working in London at the National Hospital for Neurology in Queen's Square at UCL. And we received a letter from a doctor describing a guy in his 30s. And this guy had been a highly productive person. He was in finance. He was also really liked socially, had a wide network of friends.
But suddenly, he had become completely different. From being highly motivated, he went to, I'm not interested. I can't be bothered. And that was both at work as well as with his friends. So people began to think, this is something really different in this guy, David. What's happening? They wondered if he had become depressed.
That's why he wasn't really functioning. And he went to see his doctor who started him on an antidepressant, but it made no difference.
He was still the same. So he lost his job. He got fired because he had lost motivation. And he was so apathetic that he couldn't be bothered to get Social Security benefit. So his friend said, OK, come and stay with us. And they regretted it almost immediately because David did nothing. He just sat there in a chair all day long, waiting for his friends to come back, do the cooking, clean.