How to escape your obsession with productivity | Rebecca McMackin and Catherine Price

Elise Hu (0:03)

You're listening to TED Talks Daily, where we bring you new ideas to spark your curiosity every day. I'm your host, Elise Hue. We're back with the next episode of our original series, TED Intersections, which features unscripted conversations between experts, navigating the ideas, shaping our world. When's the last time you did something purely for the joy of it, with nothing to show for it afterward?

Our two guests think we don't do it nearly enough. Rebecca McMackin is an ecological horticulturalist who wants people to let their lawns grow wild. Catherine Price is a science journalist and the author of a book about having fun.

What they share is the conviction that a lot of us have been sold a lie, that time only counts when it's productive. They say the truth is far more freeing. Life's most valuable parts are immeasurable.

Catherine Price (0:54)

If you're just hanging out with a friend and you have a great conversation, why is that not considered productive?

I'm curious about your thoughts in terms of gardening. What is productive? What's not productive? The root of productive is to lead forth, pro-duco, if I may get super dorky and go Latin, right at the beginning of this conversation.

Elise Hu (1:11)

Across the conversation, Rebecca and Catherine get into the relief of giving up control, why adding a little friction to your life might be worth it, and what a 400-year-old oak tree can teach us.

Rebecca McMackin (1:23)

At a time where so many people are having trouble even imagining the future, and the future is very uncertain and scary, it can be a pretty radical act to say, I'm going to create this myself. I'm going to go out and do it myself.

Elise Hu (1:38)

From growing milkweed to taking up unproductive hobbies, they make the case that doing something for its own sake shouldn't need defending. That's coming up right after a short break.

And now, our TED Conversation of the day.

Catherine Price (2:00)

Things that are really important for us are not easy, like getting together with friends, allowing your kids to go play together without adult supervision.

These are not easy. What's easy is to spend a lot of time on products whose designers make money when you spend a lot of time on them.

Rebecca McMackin (2:34)

Okay, Catherine, what do people get wrong about productivity?

Catherine Price (2:39)

I think we get the whole concept of productivity wrong. To me, I think we tend to think that productivity has to do with money, that if you use time on something, and you don't have a quantifiable output, in many cases, financial, then it's not worth it, that you weren't productive. And so, when I think about it, I try to think of other ways that you can have a productive use of your time.

For example, like if you're just hanging out with a friend and you have a great conversation, why is that not considered productive, right? And I'm curious about your thoughts in terms of gardening. What is productive, what's not productive? Like the root of productive is to lead forth pro-duco, if I may get super dorky and go Latin right at the beginning of this conversation. But I also just get so tired of when there's the assumption that you need to have an output of any kind in order to have something be classified as productive. What do you see the connection being between the work that you do and the way that you encourage people to garden for the sake of gardening with our society's obsession with productivity?

Rebecca McMackin (3:38)

I do think that the way that most people garden, certainly there are some productive gardeners who are interested in growing the most humongous pumpkins that have ever been grown.

Catherine Price (3:48)

It's always pumpkins. Yeah.

Rebecca McMackin (3:50)

But most of us do it as a way to get away from that culture of productivity, as a break, as almost a form of self-care, or even a practice like yoga and meditation. And so it's a healthy way to reconnect to the earth, reconnect to ourselves, connect to all the other organisms that are around us, and allows people to survive and thrive in this overly productive world. I feel like your work is similar in that we're all sort of caught up in this busyness that is hard to escape, and it can be hard to remember that we need to have fun.

And so, do you see your work as spreading like anti-productivity?

Catherine Price (4:37)

Well, I mean, again, I think it depends on what we think of the definition of productivity being, but I do see fun as a respite from this obsession with productivity. But I also see this conflict where people will start doing something for fun, and then this need for productivity is so deeply ingrained, they'll turn it into a side hustle. Or like, as a personal example, playing music. Like, I don't care about performing music for an audience. I just really love playing music, but it's very hard to get adults to just get together to play, instead of saying, okay, what's going to be the end product? Like, what's the goal? Are we going to produce something, even if it's something that's not actually a tangible, like a show?