How Caleb Flynn Used His Own Church to Get a 21-Year-Old to Trust Him

Tony Brueski (0:01)

This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Brueski and Robin Greene.

Tony Brueski (0:09)

At the center of the Caleb Flynn trial is a dynamic that started long before any crime took place. We have a 36-year-old worship team volunteer and a 21-year-old church intern. The term grooming is thrown around quite a bit. But what does it actually look like when two consenting adults have this kind of massive power imbalance? We're going to break down the halo effect of church leadership, how age gaps distort reality, and how a predator weaponizes a young woman's trust. That's what we're going to be getting into today as we discuss the Caleb Flynn case. Joining us to do so is Shavaun Scott, psychotherapist and author, as well as Robin Drake, retired FBI Special Agent, Chief of the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program and master class instructor. Let's start here today.

Shavaun, we'll go with you at 21 Her brain's still developing. I'm not trying to give her a pass, but I'm just being realistic about what's going on here. Brain's still developing while he's pushing 40

How does that specific age and maturity gap allow an older man to completely rewrite reality and set the rules of engagement for a younger woman?

Shavaun Scott (1:31)

Yeah, with that kind of age difference, the older person always has more power interpersonally, and they've lived longer. They've got more manipulative tactics in their tool belt.

And it's common in churches. I was just reading some research today. There hasn't been research on this, even though we see it. Obviously, we see it on this show all the time. But there's actual, yeah, some actual research out of Australia where they did a formal study on it. And it's very common for people who have some kind of leadership role in a, it specifically mentioned evangelical churches to coerce people within the church, younger women, into sexual relationships. And that's pretty scary.

Robin Greene (2:19)

You know, it's, it's, I see the grooming and we saw it especially on the first day when, when his, I'm sorry, I keep calling her side piece, when side piece was on the stand and they're going through the text from him to her. And you definitely saw that grooming element. You saw the age difference and you're like, oh my God, this is horrendous what he was doing to her. But then when the fence came on and they took her on cross and you saw, a, almost a reversal.

Do you, so my question, Shavaun, is did she, should she reverse the grooming? He is like, I almost saw like, like mutual grooming here because he initially approached her, but then she doubled down and like went back at him. It almost looked like, did that happen? Or is it just my perception?

Shavaun Scott (3:09)

No, I think you're, you're bringing up something really important. That cross was fascinating to me. And as I do, I took pages and pages of notes here on it. I won't read them all to you. But what I saw was this synergistic enmeshment between the two of them.

Robin Greene (3:24)

Here's your book about poetry again.

Shavaun Scott (3:26)

Yeah, yeah. I like synergistic enmeshment because...

Tony Brueski (3:30)

That's today's word and also brought to you by the number four. It's Sesame Street.

Tony Brueski (3:36)

Spiritus synergistic enmeshment.

Tony Brueski (3:39)

I'm writing it down. I love it.

Shavaun Scott (3:41)

Yeah, yeah. The 107,000 texts and she had actually written twice as many as he had written, which was really interesting. So I think he was manipulating her, she was manipulating him right back.

So you have this incredibly toxic interpersonal relationship going on, that I don't call love in any way, shape or form. It was addiction and obsession with each other. And even though at 21, 22, her brain was not completely formed, which I think in this case means long-term judgment was very poor. I mean, this was not going to end well.

And it seems like neither one of them could see that because he's really an adolescent. And it was, you know, listening to these texts, it really had the flavor of a couple of 14 or 15 year olds, you know, there was this emptiness, particularly with her. I can't live without you. I'm nothing without you. I can't go on without you. And that's a troubled person. That, you know, I really had the urge. I thought that's somebody I could get into therapy and go, let's talk about your background. And where does this neediness and this desperation come? And why is your bar so low here?

Tony Brueski (5:04)

Yeah, exactly.

I'm curious about the people in these sort of situations, the predators, if you will. And we're talking about Caleb specifically and these types of characters in these religious settings. When they, so many of them seem to have this arrested development about them, where they are very much adolescent. They're doing exactly what you said. They're very needy.