Have Better Conversations and Build Deeper Connections with Vanessa Van Edwards

Chris Hutchins (0:00)

Being great at conversation is probably the most underrated skill you can build, and it's far more learnable than most of us assume. Vanessa Van Edwards has spent almost 20 years researching what separates forgettable conversations from ones that leave people energized.

Vanessa Van Edwards (0:15)

As she puts it, We're having less conversations than ever. So if we're going to have them, we have to make sure they count.

Chris Hutchins (0:21)

Today we'll break down better ways to start a conversation than just how's it going, how to connect with people even when you don't naturally click, how to tell if you're talking too much and what to do about it, and how to gracefully exit a conversation that's going nowhere, and actually a lot more. I'm Chris Hutchins. If you enjoy this episode, leave a comment or share it with a friend. If you want to keep upgrading your money points in life, click follow or subscribe.

Vanessa, I've heard you recently say that podcasts aren't really conversations, they can just be performative. What can we do to make sure this is a real conversation that people find valuable?

Vanessa Van Edwards (0:56)

Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited you asked. We both ask and answer, so can we do that? Let's pretend that we're having a catch-up dinner. You and I have known each other for a couple of years, right?

Chris Hutchins (1:08)

There was a conference I saw you speak at, I was like, I want to have you on the podcast. You were actually the first video episode we ever did, but it was four years ago, and then we've hung out at Nick Gray's birthday conference and all kinds of stuff.

Vanessa Van Edwards (1:20)

Okay, so we've known each other for years. The only way to make this not performative, it still will be because we know people are listening, but to really dial in to what a real conversation would be like, would be if we pretended that we're just catching up on a Zoom call, or like I have my coffee, you have your coffee, and we're actually discussing one of the most profound issues facing our generation right now, which is how do we maintain conversation and connection in a world where we're talking to technology too much. If we want to make this a real conversation, that's how we would do it. We would discuss it together.

Chris Hutchins (1:51)

Hopefully, we can do that and weave in some of the things that you can share because I typically do a lot of solo episodes where I'm like, I'm going to do the research so that people can benefit from that. You've done the research to benefit all of us, myself included.

I feel like there are days I'm good at conversation and there are days where I am the worst.

Vanessa Van Edwards (2:12)

Oh my gosh, real. Well, I don't think all social energy is created equal. I don't know if this happens to you, but I will sometimes see an old friend, a dear friend, and I'm just kind of in a social funk. I'm like low energy. We get there and we're not laughing as much. We're like, wah, wah, how's your kids? How's the work? And it is very low energy. And I actually think it's a chemical issue.

I think chemically, there are cocktails that we gift each other in really good conversation. And not to get too sciencey, your audience loves science, right? They'll go with it. Okay, my people. So I like to think of every conversation is like you're giving someone a cocktail.

And this is art and science. This is based on research, but also just what I've felt of that thing of like, why do I just not feel it? In a good conversation, I think that there are three main chemicals at play. And master conversationalists are gifting this cocktail. They are, not surprisingly, dopamine, oxytocin and serotonin. With my students, I call it the DOS cocktail. I'm like, are you giving a DOS cocktail in this presentation, in this pitch, when you talk to your boss on a date? So in a DOS cocktail, I think if you're not clicking in a conversation or you're having low energy, you're either missing one of those ingredients or you're giving them only a sip. So dopamine, we talk about a lot, but I actually think it's a little bit misunderstood from a conversational perspective. Right now, we're talking a lot about dopamine in terms of social media, right? Like, oh, I'm seeing a video that gets me excited or I feel pleasure. And that's good. I love excitement and pleasure. But actually, I think that dopamine is the chemical energy.