Gina Raimondo on How European Industry Is Getting Crushed

SPEAKER_2 (0:02)

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Joe Weisenthal (0:18)

Hello, and welcome to a live episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal.

Tracy Alloway (0:24)

And I'm Tracy Alloway.

Joe Weisenthal (0:25)

So, I guess for listeners who are hearing this, here at CFR, I need to talk about, truly do have the perfect guest with us. We're gonna be speaking with CFR distinguished fellow, Gina Raimondo, previously the Commerce Secretary, previously Governor of Rhode Island. So Gina, looking forward to chatting.

Gina Raimondo (0:43)

Me too, thank you for having me.

Joe Weisenthal (0:47)

There's so much to talk about. By the way, what's the date today? It's April 1st. We always make a note of that these days.

Tracy Alloway (0:52)

You better add in the time.

Joe Weisenthal (0:54)

Yeah, what time? 11.45, because so much is liable to change by the time other people hear this episode. But I want to start on, I saw a headline this morning, President Trump, he's set to give a speech tonight related to the war in Iran. And according to a report, I think it was a Reuters report, he's going to criticize NATO heavily. They haven't gotten involved in the war.

It may be threatened to pull out of NATO yet again. And I'm curious from your perspective, how thick is the ice right now between the US and Europe? And how much more is there for it to thin?

Gina Raimondo (1:31)

Yes, that makes sense. It does make sense. Hello everybody. It's great to be here. It's great to be on the show. I don't think it's that thick. The last time I was in Europe was, I guess, a month and a half ago for the Munich Security Conference and spent a lot of time with European ministers, military leaders, CEOs. And I think their patience is wearing thin with us and somewhat justifiably. So I don't think it's very thick. Listen, I understand the president's point if he thinks European countries aren't pulling their weight or doing their fair share as it relates to investing in their military capacity and participating in NATO. That being said, I mean, it's not clear to me that before we invaded, we had a strategic plan with our European allies to get involved. And so, you know, it's like a lot of things with this administration, maybe not a terrible idea, but very poor execution.

Tracy Alloway (2:30)

So I know when you were commerce secretary, you obviously spent a lot of your time thinking about the US versus China technology situation. And I know you argued also that we actually need Europe when we think about that, because if we're going to have something like export controls in the US, it doesn't really work if Europe doesn't come along with us. When you think about economic security in the context of, let's just say, fraying US-European relations, where are we headed?

Gina Raimondo (3:01)

I think we're in a bad place. I don't think we can effectively compete with China economically, technologically, without allies. They're just too big. They're too big. They're too determined. And so we need allies, including Europe, by the way, including Southeast Asia, including the global south. And so if you were to say to me, hey, what do you think is the biggest mistake about how this administration is handling China and their China strategy? I would say, pissing off all our allies.

It's just not a good idea. By the way, it's not good for Europe. When I was in Europe, in Munich, what I would say to the Europeans is, I know you're unhappy with us, but we're your closest ally, and it isn't good for you to cozy up to China. If you look at now what China is doing to Europe, it's terrible for Europe. The Chinese imports to Europe have surged. I can't remember the exact number, but it's like 20, 30% more imports from China to Europe this year, year to date, versus last year. The German industrial base is going to get crushed. This is China's play. They run the play over and over again. They subsidize, they dump cheap products into the global market, in this case Europe, also Africa, distort the price, and it makes it impossible to compete. So that's bad for America. It weakens our allies in Europe. By the way, it's bad for Europe. And that's why the ice is thinning. But my point to Europe is, okay, your feelings are hurt, but China's not your friend.

Joe Weisenthal (4:52)

Yeah, let's talk about this a little bit more because this phenomenon is like, all right, Germany has an incredible history of chemical giants and automotive giants, obviously, and so forth. And there's a lot that gets talked about in the US-Europe relationship these days, primarily centered on defense and NATO spending, et cetera. But it does feel to me like there is comparably less attention paid to just, what is industrial Europe even gonna be in the future? Because they don't have our tech, right? They don't have our metas and alphabets and open AIs to the same degree.